Labour and Tory Leadership Races

[woolley]

@ PK: So what is your guess on the next few years?

 

Blimey. Big question. I could write a book. Incidentally, I don't discount the possibility of them snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and coming up with a worst of all worlds fudge that means we are still embroiled when the EU collapses. That would be typical of politicians, but I hope for better.

 

As far as the EU is concerned, I give the euro 2 to 5 years at most and the Union itself not much more than 5 to 10 years. It could do a Soviet Union and fold much sooner. The southern countries just cannot conform to the pressures and they must be allowed to revert to their national currencies and devalue. They are currently crippled. Exiting the euro will boost their economies. It is only being held together by smoke, mirrors, pain and German money. The union itself is sclerotic, financially burdensome, institutionally corrupt and has run its course. It has had its day. When you are only sticking together because you are afraid of letting go you are in a bad place.

 

For Britain, I think we are in for a slowdown inevitably, but that was coming and had started anyway. It's not optional. We have been living beyond our means and it's time for a correction. That might last for the rest of this parliament but I do believe we will by then be starting to see the benefits of Brexit. There are many reasons to be optimistic, but to take just one - state aid. We need to start making much more high tech and we certainly have the innovators. Without the EU straitjacket banning government subsidy the post industrial wastelands can be transformed with new industry and high value jobs. May's promise of better times for people in those areas could come to pass with proper management and it could all generate tax income on reaching maturity. They should also crack down on multi-nationals taking business in the country but not paying tax. It is a time for optimism. I see lots of things that we now can do and not much that it is in the EU's interest to stop us doing. As for xenophobia, those who voted leave for that reason may find it a pyrrhic victory as we could end up with less Poles and more Pakistanis. That could cause its own problems socially in the future, but it certainly isn't a reason to stand on the deck of the EU as it sinks.

[Chinahand]

What is it about follow through and commitment with our current flock of politicians?

 

One minute they're saying they are leadership material better than all the rest. The next it is climb downs and mumbled apologies.

 

Have some backbone and the courage of your convictions.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36838808

[paswt]

politicians, backbone? there are only a few who have , would you say that Corbyn has had the courage of his convictions ?

[woolley]

politicians, backbone? there are only a few who have , would you say that Corbyn has had the courage of his convictions ?

He's in a world of his own. He thinks his mandate is an end in itself. It doesn't seem to occur to him that he has to appeal to a wider electorate to gain power. As for more generally, I suppose it simply reflects society. Too many quitters.

[P.K.]

I think the first time I saw Corbyn he was wearing a duffle coat at the Cenotaph....

[paswt]

Could that have been Michael Foot ? .

 

Woolley , Corbyn may be in a world of his own but he has stuck to his principles and his refusal, as a leader to compromise, may result in his party not getting into power.

 

Perhaps the man is just not devious and unprincipled/dishonest enough to make a political leader , it'll be interesting to see how the members of the labour party vote in the leadership election .

 

edit to add ... the a duffle coat may have been a homage to those in the "Senior Service" after all if it was good enough for Jack Hawkins and Noel Coward , standing determined ,albeit moist, on the 'bridge' in the film "The Cruel Sea"(?) who am I to criticise

[woolley]

@ paswt: I agree. Corbyn has stuck to his principles, but politics is the art of the possible which demands compromise. As you say, this may result, indeed almost certainly would result, in his party never winning power so what is the point of his principles if they can never be enacted?

[paswt]

You may be right but I think it is better not to be a political chameleon, just in order to gain power . the labour party members (I'm not one) will have their chance to decide and I think that it is right that they do rather than the career politicians.

 

Speaking of Chameleons , that May woman came out spitting and scratching at PMQ's , a complete change from the 'measured/calm reasonable persona from a few days ago , I pity the chap who had the misfortune to marry her.

 

 

Edit to add

[woolley]

I like a feisty woman. Much better than a pushover.

[Declan]

You may be right but I think it is better not to be a political chameleon, just in order to gain power . the labour party members (I'm not one) will have their chance to decide and I think that it is right that they do rather than the career politicians.

 

 

 

I always wondered why there was a requirement to have sufficient support from MPs and just wanted the membership to decide. But I think what has happened with Corbyn has illustrated why.

[the stinking enigma]

wasn't it the case that the brexit vote scared the establishment that the plebs may actually vote in force at the next election now they have discovered their voting voices so to speak. far better to remove him now and insert one of their own puppets than in the future when the dissafected may well think he is speaking sense? must admit i don't really know the answers, i'm just making it up as i go along, much like the rest of you

[Chinahand]

My understanding of Corbyn is that for him the activists gives him a more important mandate than the electorate gives an MP.

 

He lives in a world that believes the democratic system has been subverted and where the activists have a purer form of democracy - community action, small groups, dedicated people working together against the system.

 

Their way forward, their beliefs and organisation are what matter - on the vanguard of social reform.

 

It's a message which has been very persuasive and hundreds of thousands of people have paid their dues to support it and Corbyn is convinced his message should be transformative. He's organized with people who think like this all his life, sitting in pub backrooms hoping to find a strategy to bring the masses to his cause: and now he thinks he's doing it.

 

For a life long socialist activist it must be a quite wonderful feeling - seeing the street come together to support him.

 

Those who doubted the power of grass roots socialism, who have fought to subvert his movement all these years are being shown their place and are showing their true colours against the true democracy of the movement.

 

He'll win the leadership vote and lead his socialist brothers to electoral irrelevance.

 

The British, in my view, are a pragmatic people and just want to get on with their lives - they aren't interested in socialist principles, and the public control of the means of production.

 

Sure thousands of socialist activists do - and the message does have a certain resonance, but the British understand politics is the art of the possible, of compromise, of getting things done.

 

The next few years of politics is going to be all about the trades and compromises of renegotiating the UK's position in a post-Brexit world.

 

It is going to be about the flinty world of national interest.

 

Singing the Socialist Internationale may get Corbyn's blood flowing, but the majority of the electorate is going to be unimpressed. The comradely unreality cooked up in pub backrooms is going to come face to face with a very British and very Tory pragmatism - just look at how the two parties have dealt with the new political reality.

 

Corbyn's socialist principles may be oh so important to the thousands of activists - but as an electoral strategy it leads no where.

 

What are the odds of the party breaking up between the principles (ideology) of grass roots Momentum and a pragmatic centre left?

[woolley]

Spot on China. Totally agree with that.

[woody2]

@ paswt: I agree. Corbyn has stuck to his principles, but politics is the art of the possible which demands compromise. As you say, this may result, indeed almost certainly would result, in his party never winning power so what is the point of his principles if they can never be enacted?

apart from the eu vote in which he followed the party line, he has spent his political life voting against the eu (400+ times)

[woolley]

 

@ paswt: I agree. Corbyn has stuck to his principles, but politics is the art of the possible which demands compromise. As you say, this may result, indeed almost certainly would result, in his party never winning power so what is the point of his principles if they can never be enacted?

apart from the eu vote in which he followed the party line, he has spent his political life voting against the eu (400+ times)

 

Indeed. Good point.