woolley Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Yes. And as Trump says, it's time they started paying their share for the pleasure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 You could fund schools, hospitals and roads with that money but look at what happened to the ones in Aleppo. That seems like dopey argument from any perspective. The conclusion seems to be that it would therefore have been better if the rebels had nuclear weapons because then Putin would not have dared to bomb the schools and hospitals. It's not ideal Putin-Trump now being in charge of most of the world's nuclear weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Now you are just taking the intellectually bankrupt unilateralist line whereas mutually assured destruction has prevented wholesale war in Europe since 1945. You could fund schools, hospitals and roads with that money but look at what happened to the ones in Aleppo. Is that the future you advocate? It's the liberal mindset again that views the world as we would all wish it to be and not as it actually is. Never let your guard down and you can live peacefully behind it. So all those countries without nukes...why do they constant appear in the top of lists like best education, healthcare, infrastructure etc? We don't need nukes. Our poultry 150 versus the 1500+ of the US and Russia makes ours look like a bb gun next to a howitzer. Europe relies on NATO members (USA/UK/France) to provide the deterent for them. Well they cant rely on us because ours don't work, and Trump is just a puppet of Putin so they wont be any use either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 You could fund schools, hospitals and roads with that money but look at what happened to the ones in Aleppo. That seems like dopey argument from any perspective. The conclusion seems to be that it would therefore have been better if the rebels had nuclear weapons because then Putin would not have dared to bomb the schools and hospitals. It's not ideal Putin-Trump now being in charge of most of the world's nuclear weapons. No. It would not have been better from the wider perspective if the rebels had possessed nuclear weapons BUT neither would their city have been pummelled to the earth. However, the last time I checked it wasn't muslim rebels that were the custodians of UK nuclear weapons. You seem to wish for the disinvention of nuclear weapons. If everyone was to renounce their nuclear weapons, sooner or later we will see scenes such as Aleppo coming closer and closer to home because, inconveniently, that is the way humans operate. There is no point coming up with new words for an old argument, so I'll just paste what I said very early on in the thread: If we had had them in 1939, WW2 wouldn't have happened. Do you think that if Ukraine hadn't signed away its rights to nuclear weapons with territorial guarantees by all the major powers, it would be in the mess it is now? Some guarantee. It's like all the other nice things the lefties dream of. You cannot uninvent nuclear weapons. And would it be such a good thing if you could? Conventional warfare is not a picnic. They have largely kept the peace in Europe for 70 years. Nuclear weapons, NOT the EU. All of those complaining about nuclear arsenals and marching around for CND like Corbyn, have spent nice comfy lives sheltering behind them. SNP? What a bloody disgrace they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 You seem to wish for the disinvention of nuclear weapons. I'm not anti nuclear weapons (nor left wing FWIW). I'm just pointing out that your frothy argument doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 So WW2 wouldn't have happened, but all the wars fought since have... Flawed logic there Woollster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Having nuclear weapons just means that the devastation and slaughter doesn't happen on your soil even though you are responsible for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 You seem to wish for the disinvention of nuclear weapons. I'm not anti nuclear weapons (nor left wing FWIW). I'm just pointing out that your frothy argument doesn't make sense. It does in the context it was made. Had Aleppo been a city in a nuclear armed state, it would be extant. Anyone can understand that. It matters not about the rebels v Assad. It is sober and not a bit frothy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Having them means we can stomp around in other peoples countries like self appointed law men and hide behind our nukes from reprisals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Having nuclear weapons just means that the devastation and slaughter doesn't happen on your soil even though you are responsible for it I wouldn't argue with that. Would you prefer to be dead, Stinky? Just for fraternal empathy I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 So WW2 wouldn't have happened, but all the wars fought since have... Flawed logic there Woollster There have been no wars in Europe between major nuclear armed powers since 1945. Perfect logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 So WW2 wouldn't have happened, but all the wars fought since have... Flawed logic there Woollster No wars have been as damaging nor as wide spread as world war 2, except for possibly the Congo war on casualties, which no one even knows or gives a shit about. Nuclear weapons give a special level of sovereignity. "Having them means we can stomp around in other peoples countries like self appointed law men and hide behind our nukes from reprisals." - Yes it does. Better we are in the top dogs than being a worthless nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 It does in the context it was made. Had Aleppo been a city in a nuclear armed state, it would be extant. Anyone can understand that. It matters not about the rebels v Assad. It is sober and not a bit frothy. What about when Georgia broke away from Russia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanx Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 So WW2 wouldn't have happened, but all the wars fought since have... Flawed logic there Woollster No wars have been as damaging nor as wide spread as world war 2, except for possibly the Congo war on casualties, which no one even knows or gives a shit about. Nuclear weapons give a special level of sovereignity. "Having them means we can stomp around in other peoples countries like self appointed law men and hide behind our nukes from reprisals." - Yes it does. Better we are in the top dogs than being a worthless nation. Being in an exclusive club of countries that could wipe out humanity is not exactly something to be proud of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 As opposed to being in the club that doesn't have nuclear weapons, and would still die in a nuclear war if it broke out? They are horrible weapons, and that is why they haven't been used in anger since 1945. There are going to be worse weapons than nuclear weapons in future, possibly biological, fusion, antimatter or worse. We might as well learn as a race how not to use them in anger now rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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