What is dead may never die

[guzzi]

I know this is a very sad subject in this particular instance, involving a child as it does.

 

But hey, Frozen Dead Guy Day. Cryogenic preservation as a pretext for a party:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_Dead_Guy_Days

[quilp]

They could have Coldplay headlining.

[Thie Veg]

In a hundred or two hundred years is there going to be another court case questioning the ethics of waking her up again and administering the cure? Who will care after all that time? And will the world be so over-populated by then that they will want to bring all these "frozen" people back and cure them so that they can carry on living? And if they do how will the recently defrosted provide for themselves? Will they have bank accounts all waiting for them having been set up at the time of freezing? Oh and when she wakes up she will immediately have to go into mourning for all her family members who will by then have died.

[notwell]

It won't matter. She'll be a vegetable with no comprehension of anything. IF she could be revived.

[manxman1980]

Interesting reading the comments.

 

Ignoring the science of cryogenics for the moment... I can't help but feel that being revived at some indeterminate date in the future might not actually be as comforting as some people may think. Let's assume that a cure for cancer is found and that we discover a way to revive those who have undergone the current cryogenic freezing process successfully. That person is now alive in a time when in all likelihood their parents, family and friend are either deceased or considerably older. The subject is left removed from the surroundings they remember which is surely going to be traumatic?

 

Let's face it though our technology is just not up to it at present and this is without going into philosophical discussions regarding consciousness.

[woolley]

They probably weighed it up and decided that being dead permanently is more traumatic. Not saying I agree. As you say, it's an interesting subject.

[guzzi]

Clearly there are very many very shaky assumptions that you have to make to see the light at the end of this particular tunnel. That it will be possible to restore a frozen cadaver to life, that it will be possible to cure the condition that killed them, that advanced technological civilisation will survive long enough to make these things possible, just to cite a few. I'm sure we could all list plenty more.

 

What particularly interests me is that the rabbit brain research I mentioned above shows that the neural connections in a brain can be preserved cryogenically. If it is the case that what you are, the self, is stored as the aggregate of all these connections, then you can cryogenically preserve a 'backup' of a person. As long as a single cell is preserved with a the DNA intact, you also have the instructions to make a copy of the individuals body.

 

So theoretically, you have all the information to re-constitute the person with a brand new, freshly grown body, and exactly the same memories and character that they possessed at the time of their death.

 

If technological progress continues at the present rate, it is not hard to imagine that in several hundred years time the ability to do this will exist.

 

Now, the really interesting question. If you could do this, would the resulting person be a continuation of you? Or would it no more be you than your identical twin? When I lose consciousness through deep sleep or anaesthesia, I certainly have the sense afterwards that I am still me, but what makes this so? Most of the cells in my body are constantly being renewed while I live, although some brain cells are an exception. I still have the sense that it is the same body I've always had (albeit somewhat wrecked and battered). Are those lifelong brain cells what I depend on for a sense of self?

 

 

I suppose it is currently just as much for philosophy as for science to understand these questions, but my sense is that science will increasingly be able to provide answers.

[Chinahand]

I think you have to be really careful not to read too much in to the claims made in the rabbit brain experiments - if the neural connections were preserved were the action potential levels also preserved which define when the neuron will fire.

 

Having the wiring intact is only a small part of the issue - what makes us, us, isn't just the wiring but what makes them fire.

[Chinahand]

The old saw that I've had this brush for 10 years, its only had 2 new heads and 3 new handles in that time might be of some help in understanding the nature of self.

 

The updated version is I've had this iphone for 10 years, its only had the battery replaced 5 times, the processor twice, the screen 6 times, and the operating system 12 - half of its memory no longer works, but its the same old phone.

[guzzi]

I think you have to be really careful not to read too much in to the claims made in the rabbit brain experiments - if the neural connections were preserved were the action potential levels also preserved which define when the neuron will fire.

 

Having the wiring intact is only a small part of the issue - what makes us, us, isn't just the wiring but what makes them fire.

 

 

Well, I don't think we really know what makes us 'us', do we? Just that we do have a sense of self. If I were to wake up tomorrow with my memory erased, then I doubt I would have much of a sense of self.

 

In your analogy of wiring - vs- electrical charges, it may simply be that neurons fire during consciousness and that during unconsciousness they are at their resting potential. If the balance of ions inside and outside the cell membrane can be preserved along with the structure, then that brain might be back in business after it is recovered.

[quilp]

What about, then, heaven and God, an'that? He won't be pleased with being frozen out, I'm sure. Surprising little reaction from the religionistas on this subject...

[manxman1980]

What about, then, heaven and God, an'that? He won't be pleased with being frozen out, I'm sure. Surprising little reaction from the religionistas on this subject...

 

I don't have any answer to it but I agree. You would think that cryogenic freezing would open a whole can of religious worms. I guess you could read into it that maybe they are not so confident about an afterlife...

 

On the subject of what makes you, you this video is interesting;

 

 

As is this;

 

 

There is another CGP Grey video as well called "you are two".

[Wasps4Sale]

 

If only she knew that you simply use the body to experience the more solid dimensions of the omniverse, how much better would her life experience had been without such an obvious fear of bodily death given to her by the atheist scientist, the atheist is in for a surprise, if you expect eternal blackness but would prefer immortality, you are in for a pleasant surprise.

 

How do you know this?

[woolley]

Scientists have done a good job in convincing people that their body is themselves and when it expires there is no survival of the consciousness, at the moment of bodily death the girl would have realized that it's not as she was lead to believe, she would soon come to terms with the knowledge that her body was just an avatar. Probably laughing at her ignorance in the matter now. But the truly sad thing here is that the atheist beliefs made her life experience so limited, thanks to the mind control we receive from the point of entry.

 

 

If only she knew that you simply use the body to experience the more solid dimensions of the omniverse, how much better would her life experience had been without such an obvious fear of bodily death given to her by the atheist scientist, the atheist is in for a surprise, if you expect eternal blackness but would prefer immortality, you are in for a pleasant surprise.

 

This world is truly mad and full of all kinds of deceptions and scams, it seems convincing people to reanimate soulless corpses is one of them. I blame the religions of the world for turning out so many atheist beliefs, they see the obvious contradictions of the churches and deflect to another false belief system, all by design...

This world is indeed truly mad and full of all kinds of deceptions and scams. We have no idea of the true nature of the universe or even our own existence whilst we are alive. We do not know what conciousness is or what kindles it in the first place. We do know that as the body begins to deteriorate, our conciousness and sense of self can suffer, and this might just be a clue about the chances of an afterlife. But we don't know. This is the only logical stance to have on the matter. We cannot deny a greater power and we cannot positively assert one. We are simply not worthy to attempt the question for lack of insight.

[Wasps4Sale]

And there is absolutely no disputing that, however I'd love to see Gerry try. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just really curious to know how you can claim to know this? Please explain, I mean you wouldn't just come out with "If only she knew that you simply use the body to experience the more solid dimensions of the omniverse" without having something to back that up with, otherwise it's just noise. I for one am really excited to know how you know this as I'm sure a lot of the scientific community would be. We could be on the verge of a new era of understanding here!