Declan Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 22 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said: You missed out the two Labour Brexiteers I did call them Remain(ish). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 37 minutes ago, John Wright said: OK. There are more than that, including, in reality, Corbyn. But it hasn’t riven the party like the Conservatives have. The labour anti brigade tended to be the older lot like Benn and Peter Shore. The problem labour has is that it’s MP’s, outside London, represent Brexit leaning constituencies who’ve been sold a false picture of the EU by the British right wing, expat, tax dodging owned tabloid MSM and see European workers and common standards as a threat... until it affects travel, roaming, food prices, jobs etc. But by then it’s too late You always cast the EU as a benign unchanging beacon of stability. It is just not so simplistic. People are not as stupid as you think! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 10 minutes ago, woolley said: You always cast the EU as a benign unchanging beacon of stability. It is just not so simplistic. People are not as stupid as you think! You always cast the EU as a malign force run by Evil Goblins intent on world domination. How strange that cleverer people than you or me want to join.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, P.K. said: You always cast the EU as a malign force run by Evil Goblins intent on world domination. How strange that cleverer people than you or me want to join.... European subservience, not world domination. Clever people can have malign intent. Did you not know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 So we don't have MEP's nor a vote on the Council? Oh hang on, we do have them don't we? Doesn't that make it a democracy as well? I believe it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, woolley said: No. Quelle surprise! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, John Wright said: OK. There are more than that, including, in reality, Corbyn. But it hasn’t riven the party like the Conservatives have. The labour anti brigade tended to be the older lot like Benn and Peter Shore. The problem labour has is that it’s MP’s, outside London, represent Brexit leaning constituencies who’ve been sold a false picture of the EU by the British right wing, expat, tax dodging owned tabloid MSM and see European workers and common standards as a threat... until it affects travel, roaming, food prices, jobs etc. But by then it’s too late 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) @ PK: I promised myself (and the forum for that matter) that I wouldn't start doing this again, so I am not going to rehash all of the arguments we had before about the democratic deficit, with repetition of all of the same facts I posted before. It's just boring, but feel free to look back if you want. Sorry. Edited December 12, 2018 by woolley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, woolley said: @ PK: I promised myself (and the forum for that matter) that I wouldn't start doing this again, so I am not going to rehash all of the arguments we had before about the democratic deficit, with repetition of all of the same facts I posted before. It's just boring, but feel free to look back if you want. Sorry. Just a little tease. However whenever I ask the brexiteers for documented proof that the EU is run by Evil Goblins intent on world domination they can never come up with anything! I rest my case.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, P.K. said: Just a little tease. However whenever I ask the brexiteers for documented proof that the EU is run by Evil Goblins intent on world domination they can never come up with anything! I rest my case.... As Richard would say, strawman argument. Nobody but you mentioned evil goblins and world domination. I and others have come up with plenty of facts over the years, but you simply refuse to see the merits of the other side and resort to insults. I rest my case too. Perhaps Woody would like to take the stage? He seemed to be able to keep you all in line admirably. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 The democratic deficit argument is bollocks. It's democracy, or more accurately populism that has got us to where we are now, on the verge of tumbling out of the EU. Doesn't that contradict the argument ? We set our own taxes, exchange rates and interest rates; vote in our own politicians nationally and locally, as well as MEP's. We have our own currency, devolved governments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Island, and we still make most of our own laws. That's democratic enough for me. The whole thing is built on a big lie, propagated by Farage, Banks, and their billionaire chums, along with Lord Snooty and the right wing ERG who still worship Margaret Thatcher. Millions of voters bought into it in a big populist two-fingered salute to the Establishment. It's Humpty Dumpty - and we know what happened to the egg man. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, woolley said: @ PK: I promised myself (and the forum for that matter) that I wouldn't start doing this again, so I am not going to rehash all of the arguments we had before about the democratic deficit, with repetition of all of the same facts I posted before. It's just boring, but feel free to look back if you want. Sorry. Every democracy has democratic deficits. Different ways of doing things. They change over time. And every one of them a. Was designed that way for altruistic perceived democratic reasons, and a bit of accidentally grew up that way b. Thinks it’s version is 100% purer and better and more representative than any other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 The real problem here is that David Cameron sought to break a vastly complex process into a very simple question. He thought he would win the referendum and this would put the Leavers on the back foot for a decade. But actually, because the question was so simple, his opponents only needed to deliver a simple message. They didn't need to answer the questions about whether we were in or out of the customs union or whether there would be a hard border in Northern Ireland, because they could say "well that can all be decided during the leave process." Really Cameron should have asked a question like - "The British people instruct the government to negotiate the UK's exit from the EU, and to hold a second referendum within 1 year to ratify the negotiated settlement. YES / NO" Article 50 could be triggered at this stage. The second referendum would be "The British people instruct the Government to leave the EU on the terms agreed with the EU. YES/NO" Then have a second question on what to do if No wins (basically Leave anyway, Negotiate further and have a further referendum in 6 months, Remain - that would probably need to by STV). 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 7 minutes ago, Declan said: The real problem here is that David Cameron sought to break a vastly complex process into a very simple question. He thought he would win the referendum and this would put the Leavers on the back foot for a decade. But actually, because the question was so simple, his opponents only needed to deliver a simple message. They didn't need to answer the questions about whether we were in or out of the customs union or whether there would be a hard border in Northern Ireland, because they could say "well that can all be decided during the leave process." Really Cameron should have asked a question like - "The British people instruct the government to negotiate the UK's exit from the EU, and to hold a second referendum within 1 year to ratify the negotiated settlement. YES / NO" Article 50 could be triggered at this stage. The second referendum would be "The British people instruct the Government to leave the EU on the terms agreed with the EU. YES/NO" Then have a second question on what to do if No wins (basically Leave anyway, Negotiate further and have a further referendum in 6 months, Remain - that would probably need to by STV). The only problem with that is that even after the end of the Art 50 period, which isn’t 1 year, but two, or longer, you still don’t know what the deal is, either with EU or other trading partners ( and the latter depend on the former - if staying in a single market or custom union arrangement ), because the clever drafters of Art 50 ( a Brit ) drafted it so you can’t actually negotiate new deals until you’re out. That’s why a transition period is required and the Irish back stop. Otherwise it’s only ever going to be hard Brexit and start from scratch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.