So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[quilp]

The EU's "documented responses" amount to speculation. How else would you expect them to spin it? They can say what they like and expend as much hard-cheesery and veiled threats at the UK as they care to muster but they know their very existence is under threat. I'd be very surprised if the EU as we know it still exists 5 years from now...

[woody2]

 

 

@woody I don't want to bloat quote, but yes, see my post 1584 and also the press over the last few weeks since the article 50 letter was delivered.

so just bullshit then as you have nothing to backup your claims....

 

 

 

Woody, there's no need to insult me. The point is that I'm backing up my statement about the elephant in the room with facts that have been well reported in the press, viz. the EU's documented responses on the issues I've quoted.

 

 

the cost of the 'divorce settlement', the Gibraltar situation and the contradiction between maintaining free market access and controlling immigration from EU countries.

its fake news

 

 

nothing in the treaties backs up a payment

 

eu cant force anything on gib

 

canada has free access without free movement...

 

its a eu shopping list nothing more, its not even backed by the 27 yet...

[woody2]

 

 

@woody I don't want to bloat quote, but yes, see my post 1584 and also the press over the last few weeks since the article 50 letter was delivered.

so just bullshit then as you have nothing to backup your claims....

waffle

 

cry eurotard...

[woolley]

It's the sovereignty issue for me. Better masters of our own destiny than under the sway of a foreign committee where we are almost always voted down. A bit like a grotesque version of the Eurovision Song Contest only more serious, not so funny and much more expensive. All of the speculation on both sides, frankly, is just that. The economic outcome can scarcely be much worse than the prospects for the EU and the euro in the medium term.

 

And can we lay to rest this idea that the EU has kept the peace in Europe since WW2? It hasn't. NATO and nuclear weapons have done that. The EU is more likely to start a war as it collapses than maintain the peace. Well rid.

Edited April 8, 2017 by woolley

[guzzi]

I'd be very surprised if there is any departure from the EU's stated position that we cannot have a trade agreement that allows access to the free market without a quid-pro-quo on free movement of people. I'd be very surprised if there is no financial settlement between the EU and the UK. Gibraltar and Ireland will have to be addressed. There will be an issue about Scotland and the unity of the UK.

 

Sure, we could walk away and revert to the WTO Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, but we would be a lot worse off as a nation and we would still face all the internal issues of unity such a brutal exit would pose.

 

The ideal and entirely democratic solution would be to submit the negotiated agreement to a referendum and for the agreement to include a clause calling the whole thing off if the referendum so decides. Then the British electorate could make an informed decision.

 

And yes, that would include a huge cost, but that is the penalty for collective poor decision making.

[mojomonkey]

Yet again, no idea why I'm a eurotard. Please feel free to explain your reasoning, but do try to use full sentences.

 

My comment was purely alluding to the irony of your demand for evidence when pretty much whenever you are asked for your evidence you never give it. If you really are the intellectual heavyweight you think you are you'd stop responding to everything like a child and try adult debate. I'll not hold my breath though.

[guzzi]

It's the sovereignty issue for me. Better masters of our own destiny than under the sway of a foreign committee where we are almost always voted down. A bit like a grotesque version of the Eurovision Song Contest only more serious, not so funny and much more expensive. All of the speculation on both sides, frankly, is just that. The economic outcome can scarcely by much worse than the prospects for the EU and the euro in the medium term.

 

And can we lay to rest this idea that the EU has kept the peace in Europe since WW2? It hasn't NATO and nuclear weapons have done that. The EU is more likely to start a war as it collapses than maintain the peace. Well rid.

 

I agree that NATO and nuclear deterrence kept the peace throughout the cold war as regards war with the Soviet Union and China. I am talking about war within Western Europe, which was far from a given during the 20th Century and is now just that bit more likely than it was.

 

The importance you place on sovereignty depends on how you perceive it. I favour a United States of Europe, and my hope is that the EU will evolve into something with a more developed democratic structure than at present. We are now unlikely to part of it. Naturally, there will be those that applaud that and those that, like me, mourn it.

Edited April 8, 2017 by guzzi

[woody2]

I'd be very surprised if there is any departure from the EU's stated position that we cannot have a trade agreement that allows access to the free market without a quid-pro-quo on free movement of people. I'd be very surprised if there is no financial settlement between the EU and the UK. Gibraltar and Ireland will have to be addressed. There will be an issue about Scotland and the unity of the UK.

 

Sure, we could walk away and revert to the WTO Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, but we would be a lot worse off as a nation and we would still face all the internal issues of unity such a brutal exit would pose.

 

The ideal and entirely democratic solution would be to submit the negotiated agreement to a referendum and for the agreement to include a clause calling the whole thing off if the referendum so decides. Then the British electorate could make an informed decision.

 

And yes, that would include a huge cost, but that is the penalty for collective poor decision making.

ffs based on what?

 

wto is cheaper....

[woolley]

The importance you place on sovereignty depends on how you perceive it. I favour a United States of Europe, and my hope is that the EU will evolve into something with a more developed democratic structure than at present. We are now unlikely to part of it. Naturally, there will be those that applaud that and those that, like me, mourn it.

 

At least you are honest about your preference which is more than the promoters of the EU were when they foisted this superstate project on the people of this continent. I applaud you for that despite strongly disagreeing. I think that would be a complete disaster, historically, socially, economically, and any other way you care to examine. It would degenerate into violence because one size most definitely does not fit all.

 

I think the only future for the EU is as the EEC - a common market without the aspirations to statehood. There could be other areas of co-operation as there always will be anyway, as in security, but these must be subject to agreement by independent states and not imposed from the centre through the power of a central bureaucracy and court. That would be the optimum and it does not need "Europe" as a superstate to achieve it.

[guzzi]

 

I'd be very surprised if there is any departure from the EU's stated position that we cannot have a trade agreement that allows access to the free market without a quid-pro-quo on free movement of people. I'd be very surprised if there is no financial settlement between the EU and the UK. Gibraltar and Ireland will have to be addressed. There will be an issue about Scotland and the unity of the UK.

 

Sure, we could walk away and revert to the WTO Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, but we would be a lot worse off as a nation and we would still face all the internal issues of unity such a brutal exit would pose.

 

The ideal and entirely democratic solution would be to submit the negotiated agreement to a referendum and for the agreement to include a clause calling the whole thing off if the referendum so decides. Then the British electorate could make an informed decision.

 

And yes, that would include a huge cost, but that is the penalty for collective poor decision making.

ffs based on what?

 

wto is cheaper....

 

 

 

To be honest, Woody, this is getting a bit tedious. It ought to be obvious that if I preface something with 'I'd be very surprised if ....' that what follows is my opinion based on the redlines the EU has already flagged up.

 

Can you provide facts to back up your assertion that the World Trade Organisation would be cheaper? Because I don't think there are any certainties around any of the BREXIT outcomes. We abandoned the fully understood option for trade when we decided to leave.

Edited April 8, 2017 by guzzi

[woody2]

 

 

I'd be very surprised if there is any departure from the EU's stated position that we cannot have a trade agreement that allows access to the free market without a quid-pro-quo on free movement of people. I'd be very surprised if there is no financial settlement between the EU and the UK. Gibraltar and Ireland will have to be addressed. There will be an issue about Scotland and the unity of the UK.

 

Sure, we could walk away and revert to the WTO Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, but we would be a lot worse off as a nation and we would still face all the internal issues of unity such a brutal exit would pose.

 

The ideal and entirely democratic solution would be to submit the negotiated agreement to a referendum and for the agreement to include a clause calling the whole thing off if the referendum so decides. Then the British electorate could make an informed decision.

 

And yes, that would include a huge cost, but that is the penalty for collective poor decision making.

ffs based on what?

 

wto is cheaper....

 

 

 

To be honest, Woody, this is getting a bit tedious. It ought to be obvious that if I preface something with 'I'd be very surprised if ....' that what follows is my opinion based on the redlines the EU has already flagged up.

 

Can you provide facts to back up your assertion that the World Trade Organisation would be cheaper? Because I don't think there are any certainties around any of the BREXIT outcomes. We abandoned the fully understood option for trade when we decided to leave.

 

but its not covered by eu treaties what they have set out, a breach of their own principles, a breach of international law, they are just failed parasites....

 

the wto has already been covered, the eu operates under wto as does the uk, it only adds less than 2% to the cost of imports fact.....

[guzzi]

Woody here is the WTO source for tariffs. Obviously, the UK doesn't appear on the tables at present as it trades as the EU under WTO rules outside the union. Can't see anything resembling 2% on any off the tables. The tariffs vary greatly but appear a lot more than 2%.

 

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/tariffs_e/tariffs_e.htm

[woody2]

Woody here is the WTO source for tariffs. Obviously, the UK doesn't appear on the tables at present as it trades as the EU under WTO rules outside the union. Can't see anything resembling 2% on any off the tables. The tariffs vary greatly but appear a lot more than 2%.

 

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/tariffs_e/tariffs_e.htm

under 2% is the uk's income from wto rules according to the treasury

 

uk is a member, has a seat just doesn't have an account...

[guzzi]

 

Woody here is the WTO source for tariffs. Obviously, the UK doesn't appear on the tables at present as it trades as the EU under WTO rules outside the union. Can't see anything resembling 2% on any off the tables. The tariffs vary greatly but appear a lot more than 2%.

 

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/tariffs_e/tariffs_e.htm

under 2% is the uk's income from wto rules according to the treasury

 

uk is a member, has a seat just doesn't have an account...

 

 

 

Do you mean 2% of the UK's export income derives from exports under WTO rules?

[P.K.]

Sometimes a decent newspaper demonstrates the downside of rolling news with it's snippets and soundbites.

 

Owen Jones is a Grauniad columnist and the author of "Chavs: The Demonisation of the Working Class" and "The Establishment – And How They Get Away With It" plus others. He has been doing a series of articles called "Brexitland" where he has been visiting varying and very different towns in the UK like Doncaster and well-to-do Fareham and who voted Leave to try and find out why. Sure the obvious ones where the youngsters voted for a future in the EU and the coffin-dodgers took it away from them and the racists all feature. But of course, no racist is ever going to admit to a journalist that's why they voted the way they did so expect lots of thinly disguised xenophobia (or downright stupidity) a la "migrants putting public services under pressure like the NHS" etc etc as per The Daily Wail.

 

Worth a read imho:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/10/labour-brexit-heartland-towns-doncaster-communities

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/16/brexitland-britain-coastal-towns-decline

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/23/brexitland-owen-jones-war-on-council-housing-right-to-buy-dagenham

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/07/brexitland-no-working-class-uprising-fareham-owen-jones

 

These two paras from the last piece made me wonder:

 

"The likes of Fareham seen through a media lens offer certainty, but in truth the lines blur here as elsewhere. It suits the media barons to portray Britain’s divide as being between a patronisingly depicted working class and a privileged layer of snobs. But that hardly facilitates the intelligent discussion we now need. Of course the referendum result must be respected. But attempts to shut down any scrutiny, let alone dissent about a hard Tory Brexit, have to be resisted.

For the left, class politics is about who has wealth and power, and who doesn’t, and eliminating the great inequalities that define society. The populist right, on the other hand, denounces “identity politics”, while indulging in exactly that: transforming class into a cultural and political identity, weaponised in their struggle against progressive Britain. The left must be able to counter that approach with arguments that resonate in Doncaster and Thanet, and no less in towns like Fareham."