So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[Rog]

47 minutes ago, RIchard Britten said:

Yes.  When all the available evidence of wrong doing and lies was laid bare for all to see, I can only conceive that if you still fell for it, the person most either being doing it out of ill conceived spite for some reason, or does not have the facilities to understand what they are voting for.

What lies?  Spell 'em out.

[quilp]

12 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

This really is a stupid argument...

Not really. That particular posters passion for inclusion in the expansionist empire of the EU, and his obvious hatred of all-things British doesn't extend to his making efforts to regain that which he believes he's lost- i.e. freedom of movement/employment. Does he feel unable to adapt? If so he should follow his nose and go.

The hysterical catastrophising of Brexit knows no bounds.

[Rog]

8 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

This really is a stupid argument.  Moving to the EU may not be an option for many people because they, and potentially their partner, would need to quit their current UK based job, find a new role in the EU, find somewhere to live in the EU, potentially find schools etc for their kids, and also learn a new language.   Remembering of course that some EU countries restrict other EU nationals from settling without being able to support themselves.

Some people will do that but for many the change would be too big.  

It also highlights how poor we are at teaching foreign languages.  UK/British Isles residents are often too lazy to really learn a second language because many foreigners speak English as a second language. 

So basically TOUGH.

The democratic choice was to walk away from the EU.  Democracy is government based on the will of the majority.  That will was expressed and those who find themselves in the minority have choices.  Put up, shut up, or move out.  What was very clear in the last generation election is that regaining our independence and sovereignty was of great importance because of the HUGE support for the Conservatives because of the promise to take forward walking away from the EU made by BoJo, a promise that despite best efforts of those wanting to disrupt the democratic choice by the British public BoJo succeeded in achieving. 

Now it's over.  Mission accomplished.  So like it or lump it or leave the country and if you can't - you have two other choices remaining.

[manxman1980]

8 minutes ago, quilp said:

Not really. That particular posters passion for inclusion in the expansionist empire of the EU, and his obvious hatred of all-things British doesn't extend to his making efforts to regain that which he believes he's lost- i.e. freedom of movement/employment. Does he feel unable to adapt? If so he should follow his nose and go.

The hysterical catastrophising of Brexit knows no bounds.

I don't think he hates Britain.  Neither do most people who would have liked the UK to remain a part of the EU.  Brexiteers need to stop throwing around works like traitors because that is really causing divides.

I am not looking forward to the potential queues at passport control when entering the EU.  I know that some countries, like Portugal, have said they will set up specific channels for British Citizens but I suspect that will depend on what agreement is made between the UK and EU after the transition period.  The UK governments direction of travel would imply that a UK national wishing to work in the EU would need to obtain a visa to do so as this is what will be enforced in the UK.  It may also mean that we require visa's for business trips but all that will come out in the wash in the coming months.

As I see it we are heading for more red tape for businesses not less.

[manxman1980]

8 minutes ago, Rog said:

So basically TOUGH.

The democratic choice was to walk away from the EU.  Democracy is government based on the will of the majority.  That will was expressed and those who find themselves in the minority have choices.  Put up, shut up, or move out.  What was very clear in the last generation election is that regaining our independence and sovereignty was of great importance because of the HUGE support for the Conservatives because of the promise to take forward walking away from the EU made by BoJo, a promise that despite best efforts of those wanting to disrupt the democratic choice by the British public BoJo succeeded in achieving. 

Now it's over.  Mission accomplished.  So like it or lump it or leave the country and if you can't - you have two other choices remaining.

Rog...  

The majority (50.3%) of people voted for parties other than the conservatives but thanks to the wonderful first past the post system the UK ends up with a Conservative Government.  If you include the Brexit Party in that figure the vote increases to 52.3% of people voting for parties other than the Conservatives. 

So we actually have a Government elected by the minority!  

(Those figures are based on the Vote Share on the BBC)

[RIchard Britten]

1 minute ago, manxman1980 said:

Rog...  

The majority (50.3%) of people voted for parties other than the conservatives but thanks to the wonderful first past the post system the UK ends up with a Conservative Government.  If you include the Brexit Party in that figure the vote increases to 52.3% of people voting for parties other than the Conservatives. 

So we actually have a Government elected by the minority!  

(Those figures are based on the Vote Share on the BBC)

You're on a high road to nothing trying to explain something as simple as how majorities actually work, compared to how he wants them to work.

[Rog]

5 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

I don't think he hates Britain.  Neither do most people who would have liked the UK to remain a part of the EU.  Brexiteers need to stop throwing around works like traitors because that is really causing divides.

I am not looking forward to the potential queues at passport control when entering the EU.  I know that some countries, like Portugal, have said they will set up specific channels for British Citizens but I suspect that will depend on what agreement is made between the UK and EU after the transition period.  The UK governments direction of travel would imply that a UK national wishing to work in the EU would need to obtain a visa to do so as this is what will be enforced in the UK.  It may also mean that we require visa's for business trips but all that will come out in the wash in the coming months.

As I see it we are heading for more red tape for businesses not less.

Nothing wrong with visas - especially for entry into the UK. Border visas work well in many countries, "E" visas in others, and embassy visas that involve interview at Embassy as well.

As for business, multiple entry visas are commonplace, I had a multiple entry business visa for the US for years.  We really must harden our borders.

[Rog]

7 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Rog...  

The majority (50.3%) of people voted for parties other than the conservatives but thanks to the wonderful first past the post system the UK ends up with a Conservative Government.  If you include the Brexit Party in that figure the vote increases to 52.3% of people voting for parties other than the Conservatives. 

So we actually have a Government elected by the minority!  

(Those figures are based on the Vote Share on the BBC)

Doesn't matter.  Using the same process as has been used for many years there was massive support for the Conservative party who were running on a very pronounced pro BREXIT ticket.

[manxman1980]

13 minutes ago, Rog said:

Doesn't matter.  

Because it delivered the result you want...  The majority of people did not vote for the Conservative Party.

[quilp]

Correct, the maj voted for brexit.

[Max Power]

16 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Because it delivered the result you want...  The majority of people did not vote for the Conservative Party.

But they obviously didn't vote for any one party which would reverse Brexit either!

[Rog]

48 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Because it delivered the result you want...  The majority of people did not vote for the Conservative Party.

But using the established process that we have for donkeys years the Conservative party was elected just as the Labour party under Blair was elected into office in spite of most voters voting for another party.

I can appreciate that some form of proportional representation has many advantages over our current method but it also has some drawbacks such in the inevitable coalitions one or more minority party can end up as a "king maker" thus giving them much more power than their popularity justifies.

[woolley]

50 minutes ago, Max Power said:

But they obviously didn't vote for any one party which would reverse Brexit either!

An excellent point.  

[manxman1980]

3 hours ago, quilp said:

Correct, the maj voted for brexit.

 

3 hours ago, Max Power said:

But they obviously didn't vote for any one party which would reverse Brexit either!

My point was not about Brexit.

Rog claims that the majority of people voted Conservative at the last election.  The fact is that they didn't.  Approximately 48% voted Conservative which under the first past the post system, which is flawed,  allowed the to win enough seats to form a government.

Brexit was a factor for sure but very difficult to analyse the voting patterns at the election based solely on that one point.  Due to the amountof tactical voting that was going on.

[Rog]

7 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

 

My point was not about Brexit.

Rog claims that the majority of people voted Conservative at the last election.  The fact is that they didn't.  Approximately 48% voted Conservative which under the first past the post system, which is flawed,  allowed the to win enough seats to form a government.

Brexit was a factor for sure but very difficult to analyse the voting patterns at the election based solely on that one point.  Due to the amountof tactical voting that was going on.

OK, try this.  More people voted Conservative than for any other party.

As for tactical voting you do have a very valid point.  I'm my own case I would have voted in almost any direction to keep Labour/Momentum from gaining the North Norfolk constituency seat.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Rog