manxman1980 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 11 hours ago, woolley said: I assume that the below is the data being quoted. You can see from the graph that it has been all over the place since 2005, but mainly higher than it was in 2019. As the pre-Blair figures were very much lower there is absolutely no point in taking an average since 1975, unless you are trying to make a spurious point. Sort of thing you might find in the Daily Express or Immigration Watch. The breakdown shows a decrease in EU citizens migrating to the UK but an increase in non-EU citizens migrating to the UK. Those non-EU citizens are having to go through the current visa and immigration processes which suggests that immigration will not dwindle when freedom of movement ends. Under the new proposals the UK Government is going to remove the resident labour market test. This somewhat flies in the face of Rog's claim of forcing the "lazy" to work. That said the new immigration rules will swell Government coffers as companies have to pay for sponsorship licences, pay immigration and skills charges. That is in addition to the additional red tape that employers will have to comply with to recruit EU workers which they do not have to do now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 24 minutes ago, P.K. said: So lets see. 5 + 17 = 22. It's just pathetic... Try to read and understand what is taking place. These are things that are making the headlines and do not represent the underlying activities such as raids on "Indian" takeaway joints etc. which are increasing day by day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: The breakdown shows a decrease in EU citizens migrating to the UK but an increase in non-EU citizens migrating to the UK. Those non-EU citizens are having to go through the current visa and immigration processes which suggests that immigration will not dwindle when freedom of movement ends. Under the new proposals the UK Government is going to remove the resident labour market test. This somewhat flies in the face of Rog's claim of forcing the "lazy" to work. That said the new immigration rules will swell Government coffers as companies have to pay for sponsorship licences, pay immigration and skills charges. That is in addition to the additional red tape that employers will have to comply with to recruit EU workers which they do not have to do now. No they're not. The improved visa clamp down has not started to bite yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Rog said: Try to read and understand what is taking place. These are things that are making the headlines and do not represent the underlying activities such as raids on "Indian" takeaway joints etc. which are increasing day by day. I just find it extremely amusing that all the racist bigots who voted for Leave have increased the number of people coming into the UK who want to settle here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, P.K. said: I just find it extremely amusing that all the racist bigots who voted for Leave have increased the number of people coming into the UK who want to settle here.... Why is it racist to want sovereignty and independence returned to our nation and why is it racist to demand that all those here illegally or have behaved inappropriately are kicked out? Moreover your assumption that immigrants will be permitted to remain as we move forward is very unfounded plus as further legislation is enacted to make our country very less attractive than it has been a great many are likely to look for greener fields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 31 minutes ago, Rog said: No they're not. The improved visa clamp down has not started to bite yet. No they're not what? Currently non-EU citizens gain entry via what is laughably referred to as a points based immigration system but in reality is a checklist. The proposed new immigration rules are essentially the same system with some tweaks (like the removal of the resident labour market test) and actually assigning points to the criteria. I suspect there will also be a re-branding so that those who are not familiar with the current visa and immigration system think that the rules have changed significantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: No they're not what? Currently non-EU citizens gain entry via what is laughably referred to as a points based immigration system but in reality is a checklist. The proposed new immigration rules are essentially the same system with some tweaks (like the removal of the resident labour market test) and actually assigning points to the criteria. I suspect there will also be a re-branding so that those who are not familiar with the current visa and immigration system think that the rules have changed significantly. They have and continue to be made much more restrictive in terms of who we permit to cross our borders. But this whole thing is work in progress. Changes to access to our Benefit scene better described as Welfare State social security as well as much needed changes for every claimant of hard working tax payers money are going to be part of the make England great again program and the more that Labour supporters howl the more evident it will be that we're doing the right things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 13 minutes ago, Rog said: They have and continue to be made much more restrictive in terms of who we permit to cross our borders. But this whole thing is work in progress. Changes to access to our Benefit scene better described as Welfare State social security as well as much needed changes for every claimant of hard working tax payers money are going to be part of the make England great again program and the more that Labour supporters howl the more evident it will be that we're doing the right things. The proposals remove the resident labour market test. This requires employers wishing to recruit from outside the UK/EU to advertise the role in specified locations for a specified period of time and document that this has been done before they can make an offer to a non-EU national. That requirement will no longer apply under the current scheme so employers will still be able to apply for visa's without trying to recruit from within the UK. It is proposed to reduce the salary requirements making it more likely that a non-UK national will be able to obtain a visa. That all makes the process easier (although employers will face an increase in costs compared to being able to recruit EU nationals). The increased costs and record keeping requirements will impact on businesses. The new rules really impact those entering low-skilled roles such as those picking fruit and veg and those working in hospitality. As we have seen at least one brexit supporter is unhappy about that. They also impact on the self-employed as the new proposals do not include an immigration route for those people (the current arrangements do). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: The proposals remove the resident labour market test. This requires employers wishing to recruit from outside the UK/EU to advertise the role in specified locations for a specified period of time and document that this has been done before they can make an offer to a non-EU national. That requirement will no longer apply under the current scheme so employers will still be able to apply for visa's without trying to recruit from within the UK. It is proposed to reduce the salary requirements making it more likely that a non-UK national will be able to obtain a visa. That all makes the process easier (although employers will face an increase in costs compared to being able to recruit EU nationals). The increased costs and record keeping requirements will impact on businesses. The new rules really impact those entering low-skilled roles such as those picking fruit and veg and those working in hospitality. As we have seen at least one brexit supporter is unhappy about that. They also impact on the self-employed as the new proposals do not include an immigration route for those people (the current arrangements do). It is work in progress that will be affected by and will affect other aspects of employment and residence in the UK. We WILL filter who we permit to enter OUR country along with associated terms and conditions. We don't want low skill immigrants, in fact we categorically do NOT want any. Working visas for seasonal agricultural workers cater for any short fall in UK workers but use of existing legislation hopefully re-enforced by some variation of Workfare will reduce the need for imported farm workers by getting the can work won't work off their behinds and earning their tax payers hand outs. After all if immigrants can work here then there's no excuse for the UK bone idle not doing likewise. BREXIT is the start of a huge shake up of life in the UK starting with the end of the "entitled" mindset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 46 minutes ago, Rog said: Working visas for seasonal agricultural workers cater for any short fall in UK workers Care to point out in the new proposals where the allowance is for such working visas? I asked Woolley earlier but he avoided the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 37 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Care to point out in the new proposals where the allowance is for such working visas? I asked Woolley earlier but he avoided the question. At this time the Tier 2 visa is in use and is a living process meaning it will change in line with other changes that take place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 49 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Care to point out in the new proposals where the allowance is for such working visas? I asked Woolley earlier but he avoided the question. No I didn't at all. I gave a comprehensive response. I said that when you bring in new legislation it never arrives complete for all eventualities for all time. Policy evolves in line with experience. This morning I have been dealing with a load of tax related issues with the accountant. In front of us we had the Income Tax Acts 1970,1989 & 2006 as well as a stack of amendments to all three and various TTOs. Nothing is cast in stone and if rules are inhibiting business they will be changed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 41 minutes ago, Rog said: At this time the Tier 2 visa is in use and is a living process meaning it will change in line with other changes that take place. 23 minutes ago, woolley said: No I didn't at all. I gave a comprehensive response. I said that when you bring in new legislation it never arrives complete for all eventualities for all time. Policy evolves in line with experience. This morning I have been dealing with a load of tax related issues with the accountant. In front of us we had the Income Tax Acts 1970,1989 & 2006 as well as a stack of amendments to all three and various TTOs. Nothing is cast in stone and if rules are inhibiting business they will be changed. I don't think I need to remind you both that the new immigration rules need to pass through Parliament and be in place by the 1st January 2021... You cannot carry on the existing regulations as they allow EU workers to freely enter and work in the UK without a visa. If you argue that you simply extend them to include EU workers then you suddenly have a lot of employers who won't have sponsorship licences and will struggle with recruitment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 minute ago, manxman1980 said: I don't think I need to remind you both that the new immigration rules need to pass through Parliament and be in place by the 1st January 2021... You cannot carry on the existing regulations as they allow EU workers to freely enter and work in the UK without a visa. If you argue that you simply extend them to include EU workers then you suddenly have a lot of employers who won't have sponsorship licences and will struggle with recruitment. Legislation can be put through very rapidly when there is the need. It would need to be job and person specific a bit like our work permits, not a free for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir nige Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 3 hours ago, P.K. said: Good. Hopefully the endgame of a very nasty civil war. and the start of one in the eu........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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