So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[fatshaft]

Little did I know when this topic was started, just how useless Nicola Sturgeon would turn out to be. Some say it's deliberate, and there's certainly mileage in that, she's had numerous open goals, but always finds a way to make sure the keeper gets back on his line in time. Six years she's spent on the mental GRR bill, but FOI requests showed no work was being done on independence, a fraud, a plant, or just incompetent? We'll probably never know the truth, but history will not be kind on her 8 years as FM 

[woolley]

On 1/18/2017 at 9:51 AM, woolley said:

Nor, in fact, the stupidity. She's just grandstanding. May should tell her to get on with it.

Some of us tried to tell you, Fatty.

The idea that she's a plant is intriguing. Planted by whom? You don't think that Westminster was perceptive enough to spot her as a wee, gobby teenager and groom her as a double agent to derail the Nationalist cause in Scotland, do you? Well, I suppose it worked with her mentor, Salmond.

On the other hand, perhaps politicians in Scotland are just as useless as they are everywhere else.

Edited February 19, 2023 by woolley

[manxman1980]

@fatshaft  @woolley

What do you think she could have done to deliver Scottish Independence or a least a second Independence referendum?

It appears to me that she explored all the political avenues and even the legal ones, however, she (and by extension the SNP) need is consent from Westminster to hold a second Independence referendum.

Unless the SNP can get into a coalition in Westminster the party is never going to have enough sway I  Westminster to get that consent through Parliament.  That's compounded further when you have the Conservative and Unionist party in Government with a large majority. 

What would you have done in her place?

[The Voice of Reason]

11 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

@fatshaft  @woolley

What do you think she could have done to deliver Scottish Independence or a least a second Independence referendum?

It appears to me that she explored all the political avenues and even the legal ones, however, she (and by extension the SNP) need is consent from Westminster to hold a second Independence referendum.

Unless the SNP can get into a coalition in Westminster the party is never going to have enough sway I  Westminster to get that consent through Parliament.  That's compounded further when you have the Conservative and Unionist party in Government with a large majority. 

What would you have done in her place?

Well first of all she should have accepted that the previous referendum was a “once in a generation “ one. Not tried to be premature in calling for another one.

[manxman1980]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well first of all she should have accepted that the previous referendum was a “once in a generation “ one. Not tried to be premature in calling for another one.

And how does doing that advance the cause of Scottish Independence? 

 

[The Voice of Reason]

19 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

And how does doing that advance the cause of Scottish Independence? 

 

Well it doesn’t because the Scottish people voted against it.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

@fatshaft  @woolley

What do you think she could have done to deliver Scottish Independence or a least a second Independence referendum?

It appears to me that she explored all the political avenues and even the legal ones, however, she (and by extension the SNP) need is consent from Westminster to hold a second Independence referendum.

Unless the SNP can get into a coalition in Westminster the party is never going to have enough sway I  Westminster to get that consent through Parliament.  That's compounded further when you have the Conservative and Unionist party in Government with a large majority. 

What would you have done in her place?

The SNP need to start selling the case for what an independent Scotland would look like. All we get from them is EU membership, great services funded by Scotland's natural resources and not being controlled by Westminster.

We never hear anything about the daily practicalities of life, such as the currency to be used, their funding priorities, the approach to the future relationship with England regarding the border, defence, etc. The issues there will make the Irish border seem like a walk in the park. It must be in the SNP interest to put forward a full manifesto if they are convinced of the virtue of their stance because it may convince some waverers to vote Yes. If Fatshaft is to be believed they've done nothing for years. Why?

[genericUserName]

The Brexit case for an independent Scotland will be eroded as Britain inevitably draws closer to the EU again. A process which is clearly already beginning (cross party talks taking place etc). Even the Brexity Daily Telegraph is now saying that the project has clearly failed and that it is only a matter of time.

Brexit is finally dead – and the Tory party will soon suffer the same fate - The Telegraph 13 Feb 2023.

(article written by a formerly pro Brexit writer btw - they're jumping the sinking ship)

Edited February 19, 2023 by genericUserName

[manxman1980]

22 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well it doesn’t because the Scottish people voted against it.

The Scottish people voted in the Scottish Nationalist Party... what do you think their main aim could be?

 

[manxman1980]

19 minutes ago, woolley said:

The SNP need to start selling the case for what an independent Scotland would look like. All we get from them is EU membership, great services funded by Scotland's natural resources and not being controlled by Westminster.

We never hear anything about the daily practicalities of life, such as the currency to be used, their funding priorities, the approach to the future relationship with England regarding the border, defence, etc. The issues there will make the Irish border seem like a walk in the park. It must be in the SNP interest to put forward a full manifesto if they are convinced of the virtue of their stance because it may convince some waverers to vote Yes. If Fatshaft is to be believed they've done nothing for years. Why?

Is it much different than we got from UKIP?  Where did that lead?

[John Wright]

24 minutes ago, woolley said:

The SNP need to start selling the case for what an independent Scotland would look like. All we get from them is EU membership, great services funded by Scotland's natural resources and not being controlled by Westminster.

We never hear anything about the daily practicalities of life, such as the currency to be used, their funding priorities, the approach to the future relationship with England regarding the border, defence, etc. The issues there will make the Irish border seem like a walk in the park. It must be in the SNP interest to put forward a full manifesto if they are convinced of the virtue of their stance because it may convince some waverers to vote Yes. If Fatshaft is to be believed they've done nothing for years. Why?

Oh, the irony.
 

Take Brexit. There was no plan, no negotiating position, no post referendum position on trade, financial services; just a strong belief that UK was so strong and EU needed UK that negotiations would take an afternoon over a cuppa, but we’d still be able to trade, travel, as if nothing had happened but would have back sovereignty but without contributions and the ECJ.

After all sovereignty was the important thing about Brexit, not the damage. 

How should Scottish independence be any different for the Scots.

[woolley]

30 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

The Scottish people voted in the Scottish Nationalist Party... what do you think their main aim could be?

 

It isn't that straightforward. If I was Scottish I would consider voting for them too. The continuous beating of the independence drum has extracted a pretty good settlement for Scotland within the union. The Scots are canny. SNP has been in power at Holyrood for a long time, but it wasn't reflected in the Indyref1 result.

[woolley]

22 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Oh, the irony.
 

Take Brexit. There was no plan, no negotiating position, no post referendum position on trade, financial services; just a strong belief that UK was so strong and EU needed UK that negotiations would take an afternoon over a cuppa, but we’d still be able to trade, travel, as if nothing had happened but would have back sovereignty but without contributions and the ECJ.

After all sovereignty was the important thing about Brexit, not the damage. 

How should Scottish independence be any different for the Scots.

And so it will prove re Brexit as the EU weakens over time. The sovereignty IS the important thing. Everything else pales into insignificance against it.

As for the Scots, if they wish independence voted for in a referendum then they should have it just as the UK has done with Brexit. I'm all in favour of democracy. All I am saying is that if the SNP believe in the hand they want to play, then let them share it with the world.

[The Voice of Reason]

37 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

The Scottish people voted in the Scottish Nationalist Party... what do you think their main aim could be?

 

Their main aim is to secure Scottish independence but they can’t be a one issue party. They have to stand on other issues health, education etc ( which they seem to have been left wanting on).

The referendum was one issue pure and simple . Do you want an independent Scotland, yes or no?
And the answer was no.

In a referendum that was accepted by all as a once in a generation thing.

We shouldn’t even be talking about this for at least another ten years

[The Voice of Reason]

22 minutes ago, woolley said:

And so it will prove re Brexit as the EU weakens over time. The sovereignty IS the important thing. Everything else pales into insignificance against it.

 

Exactly. And sovereignty was what the electorate voted for.

Not about getting through passport control a couple of minutes earlier

Edited February 19, 2023 by The Voice of Reason
Second para