Non-Believer Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Thousands of back-logged asylum-seekers claims to now be speeded up (aka fast-tracked) by the simple completing of a form now (apparently regardless of whether or not the applicant can read or write English). Taking back control indeed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatshaft Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 On 2/19/2023 at 6:22 PM, manxman1980 said: @fatshaft @woolley What do you think she could have done to deliver Scottish Independence or a least a second Independence referendum? It appears to me that she explored all the political avenues and even the legal ones, however, she (and by extension the SNP) need is consent from Westminster to hold a second Independence referendum. Unless the SNP can get into a coalition in Westminster the party is never going to have enough sway I Westminster to get that consent through Parliament. That's compounded further when you have the Conservative and Unionist party in Government with a large majority. What would you have done in her place? This isn't correct, she chose to make that a deal breaker, every single time, which is why we are where we are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatshaft Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 On 2/19/2023 at 6:36 PM, The Voice of Reason said: Well first of all she should have accepted that the previous referendum was a “once in a generation “ one. Not tried to be premature in calling for another one. Why should we accept that? Just because Yoons say so doesn't mean we have to go along, the Yes side have said all along - as does the signed Smith commission - that we can hold one whenever voters demand one, which has been done in every single election since 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 20 minutes ago, fatshaft said: Why should we accept that? Just because Yoons say so doesn't mean we have to go along, the Yes side have said all along - as does the signed Smith commission - that we can hold one whenever voters demand one, which has been done in every single election since 2012 Your mate Alex that said it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-29196661 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 9 hours ago, fatshaft said: Why should we accept that? Just because Yoons say so doesn't mean we have to go along, the Yes side have said all along - as does the signed Smith commission - that we can hold one whenever voters demand one, which has been done in every single election since 2012 So the Scots should have a referendum every month until they get their independence vote win? With the loss of Sturgeon, and her gender identification nonsense that’s not going to happen any time in the near future. Anyway I’m not much fussed either way. But the reality is that an independent Scotland outside the UK would not be viable. I’d be interested in how you would replace the subsidies you enjoy from the rest of the Union for one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwhite Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 22 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: So the Scots should have a referendum every month until they get their independence vote win? With the loss of Sturgeon, and her gender identification nonsense that’s not going to happen any time in the near future. Anyway I’m not much fussed either way. But the reality is that an independent Scotland outside the UK would not be viable. I’d be interested in how you would replace the subsidies you enjoy from the rest of the Union for one? We've been over this and you got it wrong the last time too. Then you became patronising to try to cover it up. Scotland doesn't get 'subsidies' from 'the rest of the Union'. Scotland pays it's own way. My comments from the debate the last time. Can I 'disconfirm' Scotland is a beneficiary? No because the figures are not fully available. We can only try to read between the lines. In 2013 there was a study done by Professor Brian Ashcroft that revealed any surplus given by the Barnett formula had been evened out by extra tax revenues raised in the 1980/81 and 2011/2012 periods. I very much doubt that will have changed. Former Chancellor Dennis Healey (at the time the Barnett formula was introduced) has stated in an interview with Holyrood Magazine that Scotland pays more than it's fair share and anyone saying otherwise is perpetuating a myth as they're opposed to independence and that Scotland's contribution is underplayed by the UK. The McCrone Report stated that the SNP had underestimated the nation's oil wealth and that Scotland had an embarrassment of riches. That's before we start to examine the actual spending that takes place and how much of it is actually to Scotland's advantage. Had Scotland been independent it wouldn't have anywhere near the sort of deficit it does at the moment and there are extreme factors that would go to it's advantage of terms of natural wealth creation given it's resources in oil, gas, renewables and exports. The big question in all of this, if Scotland was a drain on England (which it's not) why would England want to retain them? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 14 hours ago, jackwhite said: We've been over this and you got it wrong the last time too. Then you became patronising to try to cover it up. Scotland doesn't get 'subsidies' from 'the rest of the Union'. Scotland pays it's own way. My comments from the debate the last time. The big question in all of this, if Scotland was a drain on England (which it's not) why would England want to retain them? What makes you think England ( and the rest of the union) would want to retain Scotland? They’ve not been given the courtesy of a vote on the matter. The real big question is, if Scotland would benefit from independence why didn’t the Scots vote for it in the referendum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwhite Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Just now, The Voice of Reason said: What makes you think England ( and the rest of the union) would want to retain Scotland? They’ve not been given the courtesy of a vote on the matter. The real big question is, if Scotland would benefit from independence why didn’t the Scots vote for it in the referendum? We've been over this a million times and you are using the same logic. You asked this question the last time. I will answer it the same way. The honest answer is Scotland shouldn't care what England and the rest of the union want. They should only focus on what the Scots want. Again, we answered why it failed the last time. People were sucked in by the project fear and then there were others who will always want to be part of the union. The SNP completely messed up their stance on the currency and even I wasn't convinced by their argument on that. Given that it made their position look weak. A lot of Scottish people also wanted to remain part of the EU and believed that the union would be. Now that they aren't, there are even more who would like independence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: What makes you think England ( and the rest of the union) would want to retain Scotland? They’ve not been given the courtesy of a vote on the matter. The real big question is, if Scotland would benefit from independence why didn’t the Scots vote for it in the referendum? Let's apply your own logic to this... The UK electorate voted into power, by a large majority, the Conservative and Unionist Party. As stated in the name they believe in the Union and therefore the UK electorate (and particularly those resident in England) wish that Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom. It is a major reason why no Conservative PM would want to be the person who oversees the dissolution of the UK and why they are often opposed to devolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 3 hours ago, manxman1980 said: Let's apply your own logic to this... The UK electorate voted into power, by a large majority, the Conservative and Unionist Party. As stated in the name they believe in the Union and therefore the UK electorate (and particularly those resident in England) wish that Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom. It is a major reason why no Conservative PM would want to be the person who oversees the dissolution of the UK and why they are often opposed to devolution. Except the Unionist party that title refers to is the Unionists in Ireland. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 hour ago, John Wright said: Except the Unionist party that title refers to is the Unionists in Ireland. It's certainly not portrayed in the media that was although I have no reason to doubt you. That said it is no secret that the Conservative Party are committed to the United Kingdom and oppose any form of devolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 8 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: It's certainly not portrayed in the media that was although I have no reason to doubt you. Well I knew that was the case. Your faux pas aside I would be very surprised if keeping Scotland in the UK was the major determining factor for those choosing to vote Conservative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 18 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Well I knew that was the case. BS you did otherwise you would have replied sooner! 18 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Your faux pas aside I would be very surprised if keeping Scotland in the UK was the major determining factor for those choosing to vote Conservative I am just applying the same reasoning you do when you talk about Brexit being the will of the people. I also cannot believe you are going to try a version of "people didn't know what they were voting for". Of course they know. The Conservative party loves the Union Flag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: BS you did otherwise you would have replied sooner! I don’t spend all my time checking this site. I do have a life and have been out all afternoon and came back to JW’s post which stated what I already knew but I’m glad he made the point. (Why am I explaining my movements to you?) OK not everyone may interpret the Unionist thing correctly but if you are going to engage in discussions about the possibility of a country leaving the United Kingdom you should have at least a rudimentary knowledge of such things. Edited March 2, 2023 by The Voice of Reason Amendment to second para Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 8 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: I am just applying the same reasoning you do when you talk about Brexit being the will of the people. The UK voted to leave the EU. ( the will of the people) The Scottish people voted to remain in the United Kingdom ( the will of the people) Not quite sure what you are trying to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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