So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[woolley]

In my opinion the UK should say we guarantee the position of EU citizens provided you do the same for British citizens, each to be protected by the courts having jurisdiction in that territory. So if you're EU living in Britain that's your choice and we guarantee it, but you are under UK courts and if you're British living in EU same applies, you are under ECJ. UK has already offered that and been rebuffed. Beyond that we will look at any "divorce" costs once we see the shape of the trade deal. The other way around as the EU wants to do it puts the cart before the horse and makes no sense. The only reason for it is that they think they can blackmail the UK into paying way over the odds. The EU is desperate for money as always.

Beyond that, offer free trade provided they reciprocate and simply reciprocate any tariffs that are applied. It will be decided by business lobbying in the long run.

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, woolley said:

In my opinion the UK should say we guarantee the position of EU citizens provided you do the same for British citizens, each to be protected by the courts having jurisdiction in that territory. So if you're EU living in Britain that's your choice and we guarantee it, but you are under UK courts and if you're British living in EU same applies, you are under ECJ. UK has already offered that and been rebuffed. Beyond that we will look at any "divorce" costs once we see the shape of the trade deal. The other way around as the EU wants to do it puts the cart before the horse and makes no sense. The only reason for it is that they think they can blackmail the UK into paying way over the odds. The EU is desperate for money as always.

Beyond that, offer free trade provided they reciprocate and simply reciprocate any tariffs that are applied. It will be decided by business lobbying in the long run.

OK British Citizens living in the EU are under the ECJ - lucky them because their rights will be protected in the same way as, say, a Greek living in Denmark (eh?)

After the latest farrago by the Home Office to wit https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/23/home-office-apologises-for-letters-threatening-to-deport-eu-nationals and with the record rise in hate crimes post Brexit eg from the nest of communist vipers that is the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38976087 and with the rise of UKIP (and fall) and the very obvious demographic that a lot of Brexit voters want shot of Johnny Foreigner no matter what the cost I totally understand and agree with the EU stance that their citizens in the UK should also come under the ECJ making a level playing field. The UK stance is a bit like a cricket team complaining about the umpires when it's the same umpires for both sides.

The divorce bill was always going to be a pissing contest but it would appear the 27 are fully behind The Commission - for now at any rate. But as I posted previously the paucity of information coming out of the discussions makes it difficult to figure what, if anything, is going on. But when all David "Fall Guy" Davis can come up with is "EU needs flexibility and imagination" to describe the current status it makes me think the EU have them bang to rights....

 

[woolley]

15 minutes ago, P.K. said:

The divorce bill was always going to be a pissing contest but it would appear the 27 are fully behind The Commission - for now at any rate. But as I posted previously the paucity of information coming out of the discussions makes it difficult to figure what, if anything, is going on. But when all David "Fall Guy" Davis can come up with is "EU needs flexibility and imagination" to describe the current status it makes me think the EU have them bang to rights....

 

I have no idea how you manage to come to that conclusion. Probably from reading the Guardian. Of course the 27 are fully behind the commission - or have to appear to be. It's because they have a black hole in the finances and the contributors such as Germany and Holland don't want to pay any extra and the recipients, virtually everyone else don't want to receive any less. They all want the UK to pay as much as possible. The cracks will appear. EU never agrees on anything for very long.

[RIchard Britten]

8 minutes ago, woolley said:

I have no idea how you manage to come to that conclusion.

Probably the same way you do, guess work and a little political bias.

[woolley]

12 minutes ago, RIchard Britten said:

Probably the same way you do, guess work and a little political bias.

And a bit of patriotism and backbone for good measure. Back from the day off work then.

[RIchard Britten]

6 minutes ago, woolley said:

And a bit of patriotism and backbone for good measure. Back from the day off work then.

Or just a bit of xenophobia, Little Britain mentality and fear...

[woolley]

Sovereignty and self-determination of nations.

[RIchard Britten]

11 minutes ago, woolley said:

Sovereignty and self-determination of nations.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-peer-brexit-young-people-lord-harris-work-longer-hours-uk-leave-eu-a7922486.html

Woot!!!  I am sure those kids will love their new found "sovereignty" working 50 hour weeks because their employer tells them to and look forward to retiring at the ripe old age of dead.

[woolley]

Separate issue. I am in support of younger people getting a better deal as I've written here ad nauseam. This has nothing to do with supporting a moribund pan-continental bureaucratic superstate which brings nothing to the party. People should be able to work (or post on forums) hours to suit themselves and not be told by a directive from Brussels what is the maximum.

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, woolley said:

I have no idea how you manage to come to that conclusion. Probably from reading the Guardian. Of course the 27 are fully behind the commission - or have to appear to be. It's because they have a black hole in the finances and the contributors such as Germany and Holland don't want to pay any extra and the recipients, virtually everyone else don't want to receive any less. They all want the UK to pay as much as possible. The cracks will appear. EU never agrees on anything for very long.

It's not a conclusion. It's a suspicion engendered by the fact that Davis isn't actually saying anything about how the talks are proceeding. He's just bullshitting. As to "the contributors such as Germany and Holland don't want to pay any extra and the recipients, virtually everyone else don't want to receive any less" if the UK has signed up to support certain levels of expenditure over a period of time then they need to pay their way. None of this is exactly rocket science and if folks don't like it then maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't have voted Brexit.

Week after next I'll be in Boston Lincs for a weeks carp fishing with the chaps. That's Boston as in the most anti-EU town in the UK with over 75% voting to leave. And yet the agricultural industry, which is pretty much all Lincs has got, is very heavily dependent on EU labour.

Ascertaining local feeling should be interesting....

[woolley]

I'd keep my gob shut if I were you.

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, woolley said:

I'd keep my gob shut if I were you.

I am, as ever, the epitome of discretion.

As any fule kno....

[pongo]

22 hours ago, mojomonkey said:

Neither side has clue what actually needs to be done, I'd be surprised if anyone truly did.

Because of the UK media focus (and probably something like the super-ego / id) many people in Britain tend to believe currently that this negotiation is equally important on both sides of the Channel - that it is between equals. Especially given the propaganda about a desperate hole in the EU budget and the bogus idea that other EU countries might split. The budget is largely a non issue since the EU can simply spreadsheet around it if necessary.

The reality is that Britain has flounced. That's for Britain to now sort out. Securing an equivalent deal with the English is, quite rightly, not at the top of the agenda in any of the EU countries. The majority of the negotiation is currently between different factions within UK politics struggling to deal with a crisis of their own making. I don't doubt that Britain can ultimately make a go of things again. But it's going to take decades.

Edited September 2, 2017 by pongo

[woolley]

You're such a pessimist, Pongo. Business will not allow bureaucracy to get in its way. And it really is all about money as I have said. It is at least arguable that to create certainty the UK should take the course I suggested a few posts back based on total reciprocity - we won't hurt you unless you hurt us - at an early stage and then business will get on with it in its usual manner. Yes, it would cause ructions on the markets for a year or two but then it would be all out of the way.

The pantomime at the moment is just playing the EU game. We are familiar enough with it. Tortuous machinations about everything for years on end and a massive unsatisfactory fudge that serves nobody at the end of it.

[GD4ELI]

6 minutes ago, woolley said:

You're such a pessimist, Pongo. Business will not allow bureaucracy to get in its way. And it really is all about money as I have said. It is at least arguable that to create certainty the UK should take the course I suggested a few posts back based on total reciprocity - we won't hurt you unless you hurt us - at an early stage and then business will get on with it in its usual manner. Yes, it would cause ructions on the markets for a year or two but then it would be all out of the way.

The pantomime at the moment is just playing the EU game. We are familiar enough with it. Tortuous machinations about everything for years on end and a massive unsatisfactory fudge that serves nobody at the end of it.

Don't forget - France / Germany / Holland will have to increase EU contributions to cover the shortfall - this will not be politically acceptable. The biggest problem is inside the EU IMO.

Will be interesting.