So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[Lost Login]

I agree with John that this is potentially politically explosive as if the reports are generally negative about the effect of Brexit on the UK economy it will be pretty tough for Theresa May to do interviews and have to face questions of why if the reports state that Brexit will be pretty bad for the UK economy she is pushing it forward, prepared to for a no deal exit etc. There may be a lot of business leaders making a lot of noise, the pound and markets may suffer. Politically that is tough especially when there was no huge majority in the referendum one way or another and if the reports indicate a decline in living standards some may have second thoughts. Politically for the conservatives that is not a great place to be.

The argument that if they are released will play into the EU's hand as it will give them details of how Brexit might effect the UK and it will help the EU negotiate. That is or should be a complete smokescreen as if the EU going into the negotiations have not already worked the scenarios through they have not done their job just as the UK should have equally worked out the potential positives and negatives from the EU perspective. The thought that until the UK release the papers the EU will not be aware of the relative points is baloney. 

 

[woody2]

41 minutes ago, John Wright said:

And it's not The Queen who complies, it's her government.

never said any different...

the queen has to respond to a humble address passed by mp's in parliament and its normally delivered to parliament in writing, its the procedure to address noncontroversial issues, labour have used it in a controversial way......

[Manximus Aururaneus]

4 hours ago, pongo said:

 

I would hope to always try to make the best of any circumstance but I am always going to believe that Brexit is a stupid mistake funded by dirty money and propagandised by dark forces. So no, I won't be getting behind it. There is no reason to get behind it. I am a European. 

Well actually I am a European too. As are (and always will be) the +/- 65 million native people of the British Isles. 

It is not within your gift or the gift of the 1950 European Coal and Steel Community to change that fact (Yes, it's a fact).

It is not within the gift of the 1957 European Economic Community (EEC or 'Common Market') to change that fact (Yes, it's a fact).

The European Union is a political entity only, it is not a country, a nation or a continent. It disguised itself as a Coal and Steel Community, then disguised itself as a 'Common Market, then hid the fact that it wanted 'ever closer union'.

Then it admitted it wanted 'Ever closer union' - but denied (even during the 2016 referendum) that it wanted an Army, an Air Force, a Navy, and a Treasury.

Now it admits that it indeed wants armed forces and a treasury.

At least be honest about this Pongo, admit that this is nothing more than a left wing political enterprise dedicated to a 'Socialist United States of Europe'.

If that is what you want - why not say so? Be honest about your aims and beliefs, describe them not as a 'Coal & Steel Community', not as a 'Common Market' but as what it has always planned to be - A 'United States of Europe' with the populations of richer countries (UK, Germany, France etc.) being prepared to make themselves poorer in order to enrich the Eastern (ex Soviet block) and Southern (Greece) countries in order to achieve a socialist 'levelling'.

Why hide your true beliefs? State them, stop trying to deceive people, then have the courage of your convictions by putting an honest description of your project - not 'Coal and Steel', not 'Common Market', not 'Closer Union' - be honest, say it is a full 'Socialist United States of Europe' - and then put it to the vote of the people.

Why, since 1950, have you been afraid to do so?

Edited November 2, 2017 by Manximus Aururaneus

[Lost Login]

6 minutes ago, woody2 said:

never said it wasn't...

You continually state that the referendum vote was to leave, and that everybody should accept and get on with Brexit. Whatever Brexit is. From memory the referendum was a straight should the UK leave the EU so that could be anything from a straight walk away, cut all ties and rely on WTO rules etc to a deal whereby the UK basically signs up to much of what is in place now, free trade, free movement of goods and people, large annual payment for the above, acceptance of EU laws and rules but just that the UK is not a formal member of the EU. I don't think that will happen but strictly it would be in accordance with the question on the ballot paper.

[woody2]

5 minutes ago, Lost Login said:

I agree with John that this is potentially politically explosive as if the reports are generally negative about the effect of Brexit on the UK economy it will be pretty tough for Theresa May to do interviews and have to face questions of why if the reports state that Brexit will be pretty bad for the UK economy she is pushing it forward, prepared to for a no deal exit etc. There may be a lot of business leaders making a lot of noise, the pound and markets may suffer. Politically that is tough especially when there was no huge majority in the referendum one way or another and if the reports indicate a decline in living standards some may have second thoughts. Politically for the conservatives that is not a great place to be.

The argument that if they are released will play into the EU's hand as it will give them details of how Brexit might effect the UK and it will help the EU negotiate. That is or should be a complete smokescreen as if the EU going into the negotiations have not already worked the scenarios through they have not done their job just as the UK should have equally worked out the potential positives and negatives from the EU perspective. The thought that until the UK release the papers the EU will not be aware of the relative points is baloney. 

 

the union run civil service would of leaked the a long time ago, another yawn fest.......

[woody2]

1 minute ago, Lost Login said:

You continually state that the referendum vote was to leave, and that everybody should accept and get on with Brexit. Whatever Brexit is. From memory the referendum was a straight should the UK leave the EU so that could be anything from a straight walk away, cut all ties and rely on WTO rules etc to a deal whereby the UK basically signs up to much of what is in place now, free trade, free movement of goods and people, large annual payment for the above, acceptance of EU laws and rules but just that the UK is not a formal member of the EU. I don't think that will happen but strictly it would be in accordance with the question on the ballot paper.

that was the result

[Lost Login]

1 minute ago, woody2 said:

the union run civil service would of leaked the a long time ago, another yawn fest.......

Would you mind awfully old chap putting those words in the correct order so that they make an intelligent sentence. I use the word intelligent in the loosest possible sense where you are concerned. 

[Lost Login]

2 minutes ago, woody2 said:

that was the result

never said it wasn't but as ever you cherry pick part of a sentence to try and mislead.  

[pongo]

6 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

Well actually I am a European too. As are (and always will be) the +/- 65 million native people of the British Isles. 

It is not within your gift or the gift of the 1950 European Coal and Steel Community to change that fact (Yes, it's a fact).

It is not within the gift of the 1957 European Economic Community (EEC or 'Common Market') to change that fact (Yes, it's a fact).

The European Union is a political entity only, it is not a country, a nation or a continent. It disguised itself as a Coal and Steel Community, then disguised itself as a 'Common Market, then hid the fact that it wanted 'ever closer union'.

Then it admitted it wanted 'Ever closer union' - but denied (even during the 2016 referendum) that it wanted an Army, an Air Force, a Navy, and a Treasury.

Now it admits that it indeed wants armed forces and a treasury.

At least be honest about this Pongo, admit that this is nothing more than a left wing political enterprise dedicated to a 'Socialist United States of Europe'.

If that is what you want - why not say so? Be honest about your aims and beliefs, describe them not as a 'Coal & Steel Community', not as a 'Common Market' but as what it has always planned to be - A 'United States of Europe' with the populations of richer countries (UK, Germany, France etc.) being prepared to make themselves poorer in order to enrich the Eastern (ex Soviet block) and Southern (Greece) countries in order to achieve a socialist 'levelling'.

Why hide your true beliefs? State them, stop trying to deceive people, then have the courage of your convictions by putting an honest description of your project - not 'Coal and Steel', not 'Common Market', not 'Closer Union' - be honest, say it is a full 'Socialist United States of Europe' - and then put it to the vote of the people.

Why, since 1950, have you been afraid to do so?

3 things

1. I’m a One Nation Tory, more or less. 

2. I wasn’t alive in 1950.

3. You’re kind of a bit mad, imagining it’s all some kind of Socialist conspiracy.

[Manximus Aururaneus]

32 minutes ago, pongo said:

3 things

1. I’m a One Nation Tory, more or less. 

2. I wasn’t alive in 1950.

3. You’re kind of a bit mad, imagining it’s all some kind of Socialist conspiracy.

I have not used the terms 'Stupid' or 'Mad' to describe people that I disagree with (as you have)  - I don't feel that my argument is so weak that I need to resort to that. I'll just leave it at the stage that when I asked you to honestly describe your project for what it is, state your support for it, and put it to the vote of the people, your only response was to describe me as 'Kind of a bit mad'. It is disappointing that you do not even know the basic history of the project that you fervently defend and are prepared to call others (who do know that history) by derogatory personal terms. 

- I don't engage in personal abuse, so I'll leave it at that. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Manximus Aururaneus

[pongo]

1 hour ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

At least be honest about this Pongo, admit that this is nothing more than a left wing political enterprise dedicated to a 'Socialist United States of Europe'.

If that is what you want - why not say so? Be honest about your aims and beliefs, 

Why, since 1950, have you been afraid to do so?

Nice try at taking the pedantic moral high ground. But the implication (above) is that to not admit this daft conspiracy nonsense is somehow dishonest. Calling it mad is polite.

Edited November 2, 2017 by pongo

[woody2]

51 minutes ago, Lost Login said:

never said it wasn't but as ever you cherry pick part of a sentence to try and mislead.  

#fakenews

 

[woody2]

the best thing to happen for those that want to leave was the mad millar women taking it through the courts, remainers haven't spotted it yet......

[woolley]

18 minutes ago, pongo said:

Nice try at taking the pedantic moral high ground. But the implication (above) is that to not admit this daft conspiracy nonsense is somehow dishonest. Calling it mad is polite.

The entire EU project has been a massive conspiracy that dare not speak it's real name or true purpose. That it is finally being found out and questioned all over Europe is cause for celebration.

[Manximus Aururaneus]

31 minutes ago, woody2 said:

the best thing to happen for those that want to leave was the mad millar women taking it through the courts, remainers haven't spotted it yet......

That's absolutely correct. Until very recently, the Country (UK) was run on the basis of a democracy whereby the minority, having lost, accepted the view of the majority and 'got behind' the decision (for the overall good). Remainers are attempting to turn that on it's head with the threat that, in order to avoid chaos, the majority should bow to the minority simply to appease them. What is more, many of the remainers do not even know the basic history and purpose of the political project which they so fervently support (or choose not to admit such) as has been shown on here tonight.

This basic lack of understanding of either the democratic process or history will come back to bite them (badly) - my only regret is that we have to keep learning and re-learning these basic lessons of history over and over again at such terrible cost to positive progress. We really should be moving on with our future not arguing over our past.

If they are so proud of their political project, why have they been so keen to deny and disguise it for 67 years?

Edited November 2, 2017 by Manximus Aururaneus