woody2 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 10 minutes ago, Lost Login said: Depending on your perspective both you and John Wright can be seen as being right or wrong. A referendum was promised in the Tory manifesto but only IF the EU changed it rules/constitution and took away additional powers from the UK. The EU made no changes that would have required the Tory's to call a referendum to keep a manifesto promise. The referendum was therefore called to try and appease Tory infighting and repel UKIP rather than because it was promised in the Tory manifesto. Strictly the latter would required the EU to have done something to trigger. Having spoken to a lot of people in the EU I think there were at the time of the referendum percentage of died in the wool Europhiles and Europhobes. The older you were the more likely you were to be in the latter camp. There were awful lot though in the middle who would liked to see change in the EU. Many voted remain as they were unclear of the alternatives and many voted leave, not necessarily because they were hell bent on leaving but they thought a narrow vote in favour of remain or a vote in favour of leave would result in the EU giving the concession the UK wanted. I think even Boris said prior to the result that he expected a close vote would make the EU offer concessions to keep the UK in the EU and to be honest I half expected that might be the case. cameron tried to get a better deal, then promised a vote on that, if i remember correctly..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, Lost Login said: A referendum was promised in the Tory manifesto but only IF the EU changed it rules/constitution and took away additional powers from the UK. No it was a straight promise of an in/out referendum. No IFs. https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/manifesto2015/ConservativeManifesto2015.pdf Quote Only the Conservative Party will deliver real change and real choice on Europe, with an in-out referendum by the end of 2017. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 That is correct. It was a stop UKIP thing. Of course Cameron expected another hung parliament and he could have blamed Cleggy for frustrating the holding of the referendum. Instead it was "Oh Shit. We won!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 i blame labour for not having one sooner..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, woolley said: That is correct. It was a stop UKIP thing. Of course Cameron expected another hung parliament and he could have blamed Cleggy for frustrating the holding of the referendum. Instead it was "Oh Shit. We won!" Top blokes, Cameron and Osborne. It's the 52% of the electorate who utterly suck. I'm basically a Tim-Nice-But-Dim Tory - but now even I am starting to look forward to the Labour govt. It will be like when Blair came in. Suddenly everyone will discover they were Labour all along. A new dawn etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 t 1 minute ago, pongo said: Top blokes, Cameron and Osborne. It's the 52% of the electorate who utterly suck. I'm basically a Tim-Nice-But-Dim Tory - but now even I am starting to look forward to the Labour govt. It will be like when Blair came in. Suddenly everyone will discover they were Labour all along. A new dawn etc then you end up paying for there mistakes for the next 30 years.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 4 minutes ago, pongo said: Top blokes, Cameron and Osborne. It's the 52% of the electorate who utterly suck. I'm basically a Tim-Nice-But-Dim Tory - but now even I am starting to look forward to the Labour govt. It will be like when Blair came in. Suddenly everyone will discover they were Labour all along. A new dawn etc They get elected once in a while but when the disaster becomes apparent it cures everyone until it largely fades from living memory. Corbyn would be a beauty. Hilarious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Blair. What an arse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 1 minute ago, woolley said: They get elected once in a while but when the disaster becomes apparent it cures everyone until it largely fades from living memory. Corbyn would be a beauty. Hilarious. John Mcdonnell is interesting. And right about the 'household budget' model of economics being utterly broken. I have come to the conclusion that the country and not bank shareholders should be collecting all of the income generated by the creation of money by lending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Hmmmm. I am very suspicious of their true colours if they get the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 4 minutes ago, woolley said: Hmmmm. I am very suspicious of their true colours if they get the chance. Me too. I'm so conflicted But it can't be any worse than the current govt. Such a shambles. And all those dreadful backbenchers - worse than the people who undermined John Major. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 on one hand you have got keir starmer making promises to remainers, on the other john mcdonnell putting forward proposals which you would have to be outside the eu to do..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 (edited) To be clear (without giving a long list of multiple quotes); 1. Folks are perfectly at liberty to claim. if they so wish, that they are 'Citizens of the EU' (and pay for same) - but what exactly are they a 'citizen' of ? The EU does not own France, Germany , UK, or even Greece (or even soon-to-be accession states such as Albania). The EU does not own the land, the banks, the assets, the political parties, the Armed Forces, the Police forces or even the blooming Ambulance services - it owns and controls nothing. So by all means feel free to call yourself a 'Citizen of the EU' - But you might as well call yourself 'A Citizen of the Lib/Dem Party' for all that it actually matters. Pay your dues ( it's free country after all) - but it doesn't make you a citizen of anything more than a political experiment that may or may not work. 2. "There were awful lot though in the middle who would liked to see change in the EU. Many voted remain as they were unclear of the alternatives and many voted leave, not necessarily because they were hell bent on leaving but they thought a narrow vote in favour of remain or a vote in favour of leave would result in the EU giving the concession the UK wanted." Err.. Sorry but the vote was conducted after DC had announced the 'concessions' - let's not try to change history only 18 months after the event! 3. Peter Mandleson (£36kpa EU pension) Richard Branson (EU vested interest billionaire) The Kinnock family (Three generational failures sucking on the EU Tit) and a few others seem to believe that, when the old die out, the middle and younger ages will advance and overturn the vote - They fail to grasp that, as each day goes by, everybody gets a day older (and a day wiser). By the time that the young replace the old - they will no longer have a 'young' outlook. 4. The EU, since the Brexit vote, is now openly saying that it wants 'Ever Closer Union', It also wants an Army, Navy, and Air Force, a 'Chancellor', no opt outs from the Euro for anybody wanting EU funds etc. etc. - fine, their choice, but were not 'Mad, Stupid, Ignorant, Uneducated' leavers pilloried for claiming such things were planned during the referendum campaign? I would argue that those same mad, stupid, ignorant, uneducated voters have been proved to be absolutely correct in their claims whilst the so-called (insert whatever description you want) remainers are looking, shall we say, rather silly - They were, to be blunt, absolutely 100% wrong in their claims that the EU did not want Armed Forces, Control of assets, Control of finances - absolutely, no ifs or buts, 100% wrong. Edited November 3, 2017 by Manximus Aururaneus 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 15 hours ago, woolley said: Blair. What an arse. I think it's refreshing that in these enlightened times folks can be totally forward about their sexual orientation.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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