pongo Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 That is an interesting idea and would be for the UK post Brexit as it would ameliorate the effects of any tarriffs. However, it is in itself a form of tariff is it not? Even if only in the negative sense. It would draw retaliatory action. I don't know. Trading partners would not be adversely affected. Anyhow apparently Brexit means Brexit means taking back control. The important issue, especially for a small economy like the IOM, is that we need money coming into the economy from outside if people are going to be able to afford to spend it locally. And the majority of that business is, realistically, going to be services rather than physical exports. We therefore have a vested interest in supporting friction free global trade. The example of local bread highlights how global and local can co-exist to the best advantage of the consumer. Noa provides an excellent product which no import can compete with. Whilst factory bread is competitively priced because of imports. It's a win-win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 You are only looking at it as a consumer. Consumers are people who have wider needs and interests that feed into their consumption. If they are impoverished, their capacity to consume is constrained. Say for the sake of your example that Ramsey Bakery found itself squeezed between the local Noa product and cheap imports to such an extent that they closed down leaving all of their staff redundant. It is not then such a win-win for the local economy. More cheap imports. Less local employment, tax, NI, and money moving in the local economy with undesirable knock on effects. It's a complex interaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 It doesn't really matter. Older people are more likely to have less qualifications as the degree boom only happened in the labour years. Someone with no qualifications has the same vote as John Two Doctorates Doe. The main thing I can see, and this affects all elections, is that young people don't vote and complain the loudest when things don't go their way. Probably because it's their future going to ratshit. Well, they should have voted then. But youngsters are like that these days. All of the privileges and none of the responsibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 And of course it depends entirely what was put into their brains while they were being educated. For example, many university educated people see the establishment brochure version of the EU and don't think outside the box. All of that guff about it keeping the peace in Europe for 60 years and so on, but they cannot comprehend what is currently happening to it. In other words, they are more likely to accept the conventional wisdom. It's the same with globalisation. Of course you can make statistics say a lot of things. I know many remain voters whose thinking is, to be kind, on a very superficial level. Lots of them on both sides of course. Sure but Brexit had the most thickos because they didn't know what outcome they were voting for yet they won. I think there is a lot in what you say though. If you think back to when Thatcher passed away the opinion of the nation was completely polarised. Of course, one reason for that was the policy rationale was "They don't vote tory so fuck 'em" despite the fact that the government of the day has a duty of care to ALL of it's citizens. Thatcher didn't care who got trampled on as long as the tories got voted back in. Power for the sake of it. That polarisation found it's way onto MF. It seemed to me to pan out that those who lived through those times thought she was absolutely revolting. Those born after those times seemed to admire her. So yes, a lot is down to how your opinions are formed imho. Yes you can be "selective" about what you read into statistics. The acid test was always that the UK birthrate had a direct correlation to the numbers of bananas being imported. Read into that what you will. However this survey is not anecdotal and certainly bears out the experience of a great many people in the UK, myself included. Incidentally it was nice to see your little forum puppy-dog "Liking" your post as ever like night follows day. Awwwww bless..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 just more guesswork, no facts You were in favour of Brexit weren't you woody? Along with poorly educated people. That's a massive surprise. unless they interviewed every voter they dont have a clue, just like you Just so I understand this. A very comprehensive survey has been through it's factual data and found direct correlations between things like level of education and voting intentions i.e. normal data mining stuff. However according to you these results are invalid because they didn't ask every individual who voted in the referendum what their educational qualifications were, what their disposable income is, which way they voted and why. Presumably this would all have to be done while hooked up to a lie detector as clearly you would want to make sure they all answered truthfully or the survey would be invalidated. That's a massive undertaking. So when do you start....? Proof, if proof were needed, that the more the bust exceeds the more the mind recedes.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Sure but Brexit had the most thickos because they didn't know what outcome they were voting for yet they won. Hmmmm. But seeing as the future is a mystery to us all, neither side knew what they were voting for with any certainty. You have to take a considered view and that is what the more intelligent people on both sides did. For instance, I would have voted leave because I am convinced that the whole edifice will soon implode and it will be better to be out than in when it does. That is my judgement looking at the portents. Yours are clearly different. Concurrently, others on both sides voted for their own reasons and many of those would indeed have been very superficial. I don't think a debate about who had the most "thickos" takes us anywhere since it is clear that there is a very wide variety of insight levels in both camps. Ironically such a debate appeals only to the "thickos". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Yap yap yap... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Yap yap yap... Well well well. I guess if the cap fits.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Hey, I would have voted remain (in fact I left the forums for a few months afterwards) but the way the EU has acted has fully swayed me into wanting to leave. It could have been genial, they could have offered the one olive branch that would have let us stay - control over our borders. But now with the UK leaving they are stuffed too, militarily and financially. We're probably stuffed too, but we'll be stuffed on our own terms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 We're probably stuffed too, but we'll be stuffed on our own terms. Taking control of being stuffed. Except I don't share your negativity. I was opposed to Britain leaving the EU - but I don't see any reason not to make a success of it. It still seems like a time of great opportunity to me. I don't see any prospect of reduced immigration because that would lead to a labour shortage. I am pleased about that because I like diversity. And economically and politically it's clearly going to be a fairly 'soft' compromise. There isn't any other viable outcome. It could even be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 We're probably stuffed too, but we'll be stuffed on our own terms. Taking control of being stuffed. Except I don't share your negativity. I was opposed to Britain leaving the EU - but I don't see any reason not to make a success of it. It still seems like a time of great opportunity to me. Sure but all the blinkered Brexit supporters go on about a "Trade deal with the US of A is in the offing sooner rather than later" etc etc like everything in the garden is rosy. To me Uncle Bulgaria May rushed over to kiss Trump's arse in unseemly haste shall we say. Now Trump is first and foremost a businessman. Like the rest of the planet he knows that the UK has very much put itself up shit creek with abandoning it's biggest trading partner. Trump would be nuts (errr, hang on a minute!) to let an opportunity to strike a VERY hard bargain go begging. After all, he has to up his "America First" street cred and what better way than giving the Empire that used to lord it over the colonies a right good shafting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Trump is only President until someone else is. And he is clearly rubbish on detail. I doubt there will be a meaningful trade deal any time soon. No matter what he announces. Mrs May is doing fine, given where she started. She seems to be playing it straight down the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Hmmmm. But seeing as the future is a mystery to us all, neither side knew what they were voting for with any certainty. You have to take a considered view and that is what the more intelligent people on both sides did. For instance, I would have voted leave because I am convinced that the whole edifice will soon implode and it will be better to be out than in when it does. That is my judgement looking at the portents. Yours are clearly different. Concurrently, others on both sides voted for their own reasons and many of those would indeed have been very superficial. Errr excuse me but a vote to Remain would be to continue as currently. So unlike Brexit it's not a mystery at all. You're just bullshitting as in BBB! Actually I'm not that different. As I posted a while ago, that you either missed or ignored, that history has taught us that ALL empires fall eventually. So I would expect The Greater French Empire to go the same way. Unless, of course, it morphs into something more suited to a very fast-changing world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) Hmmmm. But seeing as the future is a mystery to us all, neither side knew what they were voting for with any certainty. You have to take a considered view and that is what the more intelligent people on both sides did. For instance, I would have voted leave because I am convinced that the whole edifice will soon implode and it will be better to be out than in when it does. That is my judgement looking at the portents. Yours are clearly different. Concurrently, others on both sides voted for their own reasons and many of those would indeed have been very superficial. Errr excuse me but a vote to Remain would be to continue as currently. So unlike Brexit it's not a mystery at all. You're just bullshitting as in BBB! Actually I'm not that different. As I posted a while ago, that you either missed or ignored, that history has taught us that ALL empires fall eventually. So I would expect The Greater French Empire to go the same way. Unless, of course, it morphs into something more suited to a very fast-changing world. Well if you think that, what the hell are you on about? Your second paragraph completely negates your first. You really don't see it. As a side bet if you're a gambler, supposing the EU staggers on in the medium term, I can see Ireland following us out the exit in the not too distant. Edited February 7, 2017 by woolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 just more guesswork, no facts You were in favour of Brexit weren't you woody? Along with poorly educated people. That's a massive surprise. unless they interviewed every voter they dont have a clue, just like you Just so I understand this. A very comprehensive survey However according to you these results are invalid because they didn't ask every individual who voted in the referendum what their educational qualifications were, what their disposable income is, which way they voted and why. you have answered your own question they don't know who voted for what get over it- move on- you lost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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