pongo Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 15 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: EU (and Irish) blackmail Ireland is not blackmailing the UK. Brexit is the UK's problem - a problem that the UK created all on its own. The issue re the border results from a consequence of WTO rules and the Good Friday Agreement. There has been tremendous progress over the years - but the notion of one Ireland, the island of Ireland, as defined by the GFA, clearly takes priority. The DUP position is illogical.They are rejecting Irish border controls (more or less a WTO requirement) but also simultaneously rejecting an outcome which sees the north treated differently from England. Though the north voted to remain in the EU. The DUP position means that whatever is agreed for Ireland will also have to apply to the UK. That is going to mean Britain quietly agreeing, at least, that farming standards and regulation will continue to be set by the EU. It's the DUP which is blackmailing the govt at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, woody2 said: can germany cope with that? What, with 100% loss of car sales to the UK? If that's the question you're asking I'm not qualified to say but I would suggest that it would hurt but not be terminal. The German car manufacturing industry sells far more cars outside of the UK than it does in the UK, any loss is naturally bad for business but I can't see it being terminal. What the impact of 100% loss of UK manufactured cars to the EU would be I would not like to say. What's your take on it? Edited December 3, 2017 by mojomonkey Stupid autocorrect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, pongo said: Ireland is not blackmailing the UK. Brexit is the UK's problem - a problem that the UK created all on its own. The issue re the border results from a consequence of WTO rules and the Good Friday Agreement. There has been tremendous progress over the years - but the notion of one Ireland, the island of Ireland, as defined by the GFA, clearly takes priority. The DUP position is illogical.They are rejecting Irish border controls (more or less a WTO requirement) but also simultaneously rejecting an outcome which sees the north treated differently from England. Though the north voted to remain in the EU. The DUP position means that whatever is agreed for Ireland will also have to apply to the UK. That is going to mean Britain quietly agreeing, at least, that farming standards and regulation will continue to be set by the EU. It's the DUP which is blackmailing the govt at this point. its nonsense, the whole of the eu's eastern border isn't protected....... and the gov. don't need the dup votes...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, mojomonkey said: What, with 100% loss of car sales to the UK? If that's the question you're asking I'm not qualified to say but I would suggest that it would hurt but not be terminal. The German car manufacturing industry sells far more cars outside of the UK than it does in the UK, any loss is naturally bad for business but I can't see it being terminal. What the impact of 100% loss of UK manufactured cars to the EU would be I would not like to say. What's your take on it? german car trade has already taken a good kicking from the usa, i doubt it will effect non-eu uk based car manufactures the same way as it would effect someone like bmw who would get hit on both sides..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 I personally see the Irish border issue as a bit of a non issue. Why can't it just be agreed directly between the UK and Ireland? If it's about potential compromising of freedom of movement then someone entering from Ireland is only going to get to northern Ireland, passport control remains as ever from northern Ireland to mainland UK. We are of course talking about legitimate travel, crossing pretty much any border is possible if you are really committed to it, whether that is done legally is another matter. Having crossed from Germany to Switzerland and Switzerland to Italy in recent months it really is no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, mojomonkey said: Having crossed from Germany to Switzerland and Switzerland to Italy in recent months it really is no big deal. It's not about humans, free movement etc. One of the main issue is agriculture. Almost all farm produce from the north goes to the Republic. If the north (or all of Britain) has different agricultural rules and regulations then there needs to be border control. Or else the border will again become a smuggling route. This is why British agriculture is effectively not going to Brexit. Edited December 3, 2017 by pongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, pongo said: Ireland is not blackmailing the UK. Brexit is the UK's problem - a problem that the UK created all on its own. The issue re the border results from a consequence of WTO rules and the Good Friday Agreement. There has been tremendous progress over the years - but the notion of one Ireland, the island of Ireland, as defined by the GFA, clearly takes priority. The DUP position is illogical.They are rejecting Irish border controls (more or less a WTO requirement) but also simultaneously rejecting an outcome which sees the north treated differently from England. Though the north voted to remain in the EU. The DUP position means that whatever is agreed for Ireland will also have to apply to the UK. That is going to mean Britain quietly agreeing, at least, that farming standards and regulation will continue to be set by the EU. It's the DUP which is blackmailing the govt at this point. Brexit is not the UK's 'problem' - it is the UK's choice. Because you cannot accept that, you cannot deal with it. Barnier, Tusk, Juncker and Varadkar have all stated, unequivocally and consistently, that 'The interests of the 27 will take priority over the interests of the UK' Well, if that is their position, fair enough - but you cannot then extend that to say, as you seem to be saying, that 'The interests of the 27 is the UK's first priority'. You seem comfortable that they will put their interests over our interests, but uncomfortable that we will prioritise our interests over theirs - they are permitted to play hardball, but we must respond with softball seems to be your position, or have I misunderstood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD4ELI Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 1 minute ago, pongo said: It's not about humans, free movement etc. One of the main issue is agriculture. Almost all farm produce from the north goes to the Republic. And Swiss agriculture is very, very heavily protected, try bring in a few kg of beef and see what happens. Running a company in Switzerland is a PITA compared to the UK (at present). But the Swiss have their EU relationship working very well indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 10 minutes ago, woody2 said: german car trade has already taken a good kicking from the usa, i doubt it will effect non-eu uk based car manufactures the same way as it would effect someone like bmw who would get hit on both sides..... Germany makes a lot more cars than the UK, so arguably can afford to lose more sales before the viability of plants, manufacturers, etc is affected. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, pongo said: It's not about humans, free movement etc. One of the main issue is agriculture. Almost all farm produce from the north goes to the Republic. If the north (or all of Britain) has different agricultural rules and regulations then there needs to be border control. Or else the border will again become a smuggling route. This is why British agriculture is effectively not going to Brexit. How about a bit of 'Negotiation' rather than 'Capitulation' for a change? How about 'The UK will continue to permit Eire to export 50% of it's goods to the UK providing the Eire permits NI to continue to export agricultural products to Eire' but if Eire doesn't want to do so....................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 1 minute ago, mojomonkey said: Germany makes a lot more cars than the UK, so arguably can afford to lose more sales before the viability of plants, manufacturers, etc is affected. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production That is most certainly not what German car manufacturers and trade bodies are saying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: they are permitted to play hardball, but we must respond with softball seems to be your position, or have I misunderstood? This hardball / softball stuff is nonsense. Britain has played 'hardball' for almost a year now even ahead of Article 50 with all sorts of daft red lines and demands. It's utterly confrontational and stupid. And at the last minute David Davis had to be sidelined so that Downing St could call in the Civil Service to sort out the mess and agree a method of calculating on going budget obligations. What the EU was saying at the beginning. We could have been here 6 months ago. 3 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: How about 'The UK will continue to permit Eire to export 50% of it's goods to the UK providing the Eire permits NI to continue to export agricultural products to Eire' but if Eire doesn't want to do so....................... Well for one very obvious reason at least - because the DUP has specifically excluded any deal which treats the north differently from the rest of the UK. Therefore it would have to be all of the UK included in that deal and not just the north of Ireland. And because Ireland is the whole of the EU. Edited December 3, 2017 by pongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 9 minutes ago, pongo said: It's not about humans, free movement etc. One of the main issue is agriculture. Almost all farm produce from the north goes to the Republic. If the north (or all of Britain) has different agricultural rules and regulations then there needs to be border control. Or else the border will again become a smuggling route. This is why British agriculture is effectively not going to Brexit. utter rubbish, ireland exports nearly all its farm produce to the uk..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: That is most certainly not what German car manufacturers and trade bodies are saying! As someone working in Germany in a sector that supplies tools and machinery to German car manufacturers that doesn't still well with what I'm told. Can you possibly give some sources and further clarification please? There are clear issues with the future of diesel but that is a separate issue. Edited December 3, 2017 by mojomonkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, woody2 said: utter rubbish, ireland exports nearly all its farm produce to the uk..... That's not true. Another of your made up #woodyfacts https://www.bordbia.ie/industry/buyers/industryinfo/agri/pages/default.aspx Edited December 3, 2017 by pongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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