woody2 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 1 hour ago, pongo said: They want to win. And soft Brexit is the winning position - ie staying in the single market. That’s the outcome which unites normals on both the leave and remain side of this hugely divisive situation. It’s the reasonable outcome. Hard Brexit is deranged. Policy will be shaped around winning. That election could well be between Corbyn and Rees Mogg. Rees Mogg is a sort of man child version of Farage. Some people think he is great, but many more can see what a monumental **** he is. If he is leader then a lot of middle class centrists (the normal people who win elections) will vote for Corbyn. Quite rightly. exit will be over 3 years old by the next election, you avoided the point again corbyns and macs plans can't be done in the single market..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 No thanks, all the same, on balance. Also I strongly dislike people and companies who make donation a public thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 13 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: We can work together to 'define' it if you are up for it - do you want to do that? You have a go and I'll review your work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 19 minutes ago, Bobbie Bobster said: How do you define "winning" or "losing" when it involves an open ended transitional period? it won't be open ended if there is one at all...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 I think this thread can be summarised as so many crystal balls, so many different futures. Irrespective of individual positions (on both sides) can everyone agree that no one truly knows what is going to happen? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 8 minutes ago, pongo said: No thanks, all the same, on balance. Also I strongly dislike people and companies who make donation a public thing. Unless of course, as you requested, the donation was to the UK Labour party rather than an Isle of Man charity Fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: Unless of course, as you requested, the donation was to the UK Labour party rather than an Isle of Man charity Fair enough. I don’t draw any distinction between local IOM, national or world charities FWIW. But making a public show out of donating or turning it into a virtue challenge is cheap. Do it in private. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, pongo said: How would that even work in practice if the cash is upfront? Do they have a system in place for holding donations in lieu of internet political bets? I made a similar bet here ages ago and the person involved buggered off despite me winning. So, in general, probably no. Once bitten, twice shy. Tell me more and try to convince me but you will probably be wasting your time. I’d maybe be less disinclined if you were offering to make a £1000 donation to the Labour Party. You’re welcome to chuck them a £1000 if I am right. I'll let others judge your newly found morals Edited December 3, 2017 by Manximus Aururaneus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, mojomonkey said: Irrespective of individual positions (on both sides) can everyone agree that no one truly knows what is going to happen? We can get a good indication of how it is likely to progress from how it has progressed so far. And, so far, Britain is now where it should have been six months ago. It has agreed, finally on a system for calculating on-going payments - as the EU proposed almost a year ago. Rolling back on the previous positions which were that there was nothing due - then that it might be £20bn - then that they “could whistle for it” (the Foreign Sec bizarrely said that) - that there should be an itemised bill - or that it was dependent on a trade deal. Then all of those positions were dropped and David Davis was sent home whilst the Civil Service sorted it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, pongo said: We can get a good indication of how it is likely to progress from how it has progressed so far. And, so far, Britain is now where it should have been six months ago. It has agreed, finally on a system for calculating on-going payments - as the EU proposed almost a year ago. Rolling back on the previous positions which were that there was nothing due - then that it might be £20bn - then that they “could whistle for it” (the Foreign Sec bizarrely said that) - that there should be an itemised bill - or that it was dependent on a trade deal. Then all of those positions were dropped and David Davis was sent home whilst the Civil Service sorted it out. And the EU demanded £100Bn up front (just in case you'd forgot) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: And the EU demanded £100Bn up front (just in case you'd forgot) From the EU perspective it has always and only been about agreeing a methodology. The various estimates have varied wildly and very much depend upon what is included or excluded from the number. The number is pointless - it was always about the methodology. Barnier always said that no figure should be assumed. The deranged hard Brexiters have continually demanded an itemised bill. Edited December 3, 2017 by pongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, pongo said: From the EU perspective it has always and only been about agreeing a methodology. The various estimates have varied wildly and very much depend upon what is included or excluded from the number. The number is pointless - it was always about the methodology. Barnier always said that no figure should be said. The deranged hard Brexiters who are preventing negotiation have continually demand an itemised bill. I think, quite frankly, that it is you who might be 'deranged' (your terminology not mine). Negotiation is not 'prevented' as you state - it is ongoing (including tomorrow's meetings between many parties). David Davis has not been sent home as you state - he is in Brussels negotiating this week ( He is accompanying Theresa May tomorrow). What do you hope to gain by posting blatantly false news? Edited December 3, 2017 by Manximus Aururaneus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 10 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: David Davis has not been sent home as you state According to both The Telegraph and The Guardian he was sidelined after the EU’s final ultimatum a few weeks ago. At which point the Civil Service took over. And Mrs May will be leading the negotiations over the next few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 Just now, pongo said: According to both The Telegraph and The Guardian he was sidelined after the EU’s final ultimatum a few weeks ago. At which point the Civil Service took over. And Mrs May will be leading the negotiations over the next few days. So, you are stating that he will not be in Brussels negotiating Brexit this week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 Putting words in my mouth again. The Telegraph article has dropped off the feed. Here is The Guardian piece which addresses the same leaks Brexiters nowhere to be seen as UK raises white flag over EU divorce bill Quote Another source close to the process said: “Davis is less important than he was and the move of Robbins was symptomatic of No 10 being much more in control. Brussels is happy about that. They didn’t have a high regard for Davis. They didn’t think he was a very serious figure, so the fact of his sidelining has gone down well. “British officials have got their act together and understand what needs to be done, and it’s a question of how quickly or not they can drag their political masters along with them.” Despite this, Davis maintains a visible presence, sitting confidently on the government frontbench during prime minister’s questions on Wednesday, and his continued leadership of DExEU will be vital in persuading Brexit enthusiasts that May has not sold out in pursuit of a deal at any cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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