So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

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10 hours ago, Bobbie Bobster said:

@pongo I do believe he may be trolling you.  You may probably know this already.  It's still probably worthwhile countering the trolling with informed posts.  I'm having second thoughts about starting this post.

I think it that is generally accepted by most posters but I would miss Woody2's posts if he stopped trolling much as I miss Trumps tweets when he stays away from the keyboard for a day. I know I shouldn't but it is one of life's guilty pleasures checking once a day to see what the dumb fools have come up with that day and if they started being rationale I would soon lose interest in both of them. 

[woody2]

your lack of ambition clearly shows....

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23 minutes ago, woody2 said:

your lack of ambition clearly shows....

I'd rate being happy and content a long way ahead of ambition and there are far to many ambitious fools around or those disappointed in life cos they failed to meet their ambitions. I think there is a lot to be said for a simple stress free life. Sometimes I think Reggie Perrin had the right idea. 

[pongo]

36 minutes ago, Lost Login said:

I think it that is generally accepted by most posters but I would miss Woody2's posts if he stopped trolling much as I miss Trumps tweets when he stays away from the keyboard for a day. I know I shouldn't but it is one of life's guilty pleasures checking once a day to see what the dumb fools have come up with that day and if they started being rationale I would soon lose interest in both of them. 

Trump is at his most aggressively attention seeking and divisive when he is trying to divert attention from other stories about himself. America has sort of been there before as the Watergate story gradually unfolded. Though Trump has a lot less class than Nixon who was also popular with the common man.

Edited December 14, 2017 by pongo

[P.K.]

12 minutes ago, Lost Login said:

I'd rate being happy and content a long way ahead of ambition and there are far to many ambitious fools around or those disappointed in life cos they failed to meet their ambitions. I think there is a lot to be said for a simple stress free life. Sometimes I think Reggie Perrin had the right idea. 

I'm sure GROT would clean up!

Just watching Question Time from Barnsley or some such.

Nobody is actually saying it but they voted Leave to keep out Johnny Foreigner. It's disguised behind statements like "Protecting working class jobs" and so forth.

"Call me Dave" has a great deal to answer for....

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, woody2 said:

yet you still reply to posts....

#fail

Only when prompted to because I got a mention.

Even on "Ignore" you still fag up threads with your nonsense.

And what you have posted about me REALLY is nonsense.

But it's obvious it's what you do best.....

[Lost Login]

7 hours ago, P.K. said:

Just watching Question Time from Barnsley or some such.

Nobody is actually saying it but they voted Leave to keep out Johnny Foreigner. It's disguised behind statements like "Protecting working class jobs" and so forth.

"Call me Dave" has a great deal to answer for....

I listened to a bit on Radio 5 and I thought a good point was raised when they said those negotiating leave should be doing so on a cross party basis as that was basis on which the referendum was fought. As soon as it was over the UK has gone back to party politics on the issue so you have those who were against leaving now having to argue in favour of leaving and vice versa.

Living in the IoM I am really only an observer although obviously there will be knock on effects. I do not have the strong connection to the matter that some on here who post do. From their posts some appear to be in the UK so why they post on an IoM forum I have no idea. The level of debate from the start in the UK I found very poor. There appeared to be project fantasy and project fear and either appeared to be particularly truthful. I would not have been in favour of a second referendum but much has come out since that when terms are known I think it makes sense. Logically the only ones who would argue against are those who voted leave and are concerned if there was another vote that would no longer be the case. If they were confident the UK would vote the same way again why would they be bothered about another vote. In most other walks of life as more facts and information becomes available people consider, take into account and may or may not change the point of view. If I go to my doctor and he thinks I may have A and sends me for tests only to find I have B he does not say sorry I diagnosed you with having A and whilst I appreciate new information shows you have B I am going to stick treating you for A as that was by original diagnosis.

What appals me most though is the continuing lack of honesty. If people wanted to vote because of "little Englander" mentality whilst I may or may not agree with them I respect their views. Many of these would appear to accept that any economic effect arising from leaving the EU is worth it for "taking back control" Again whilst I may or may not agree with them I respect their views.  However many still despite all the opinion and evidence to the contrary still appear to present it as fact that leaving the EU will have no effect on the Economy or will be boon. In 15 or 20 of years time that may be the case but none of us really know and it will depend on what trading relationships are agreed with parties who in negotiating will only be looking out for their own interest. I still hear May referring to having a special and meaningful relationship with the EU going forward and talking as if the EU will basically be happy to give the UK favourable trading terms that will in effect give the UK access to the single market on similar terms to the present. That is not what the countries of the EU are saying and in makes no logical sense as if the UK gets what it says will happen then there is no point in any country being part of the EU.

Now the UK Govt may know where it wants to get to, although I see little evidence that they do but it would be nice if they would say what it is rather than still suggesting that the UK can have the cake and eat it option. It may be simply leaving on WTO rules with a few small carve outs for a bit of cash, which except for the cash would make many of those anti the EU happy. Again I may not agree with that but at least we would know where the UK is going and where the IoM might stand. I still struggle to understand that 18 months after the vote it is still difficult to  define the UK's position except to want everything it likes and to discard anything it does not. I want to be a multi billionaire with glamorous women queuing at my door but unfortunately we tend not to get what we want.

Bringing back to Question Time there was a comment made that in the main very few expected a leave vote, even Farage did not, and consequently nobody appeared to have thought or planned for the consequences of a leave vote. Whilst it is the UK who are choosing to leave and were able to set the timetable in my view their position still remains totally unclear to me whereas the EU's is well stated i.e. the UK will have to pay some amount of money  and as it is leaving the EU it will not get anything like ongoing free access to the single market. OK that might change but at least the EU has a definite position. I just wish the UK had as well.   

 

[woody2]

if it gets passed today the eu won't be ready with the framework for a trade deal till march, you would think these guidelines would be ready to go......

eu hasn't got a clue what its doing again.....

[P.K.]

3 hours ago, Lost Login said:

I listened to a bit on Radio 5 and I thought a good point was raised when they said those negotiating leave should be doing so on a cross party basis as that was basis on which the referendum was fought. As soon as it was over the UK has gone back to party politics on the issue so you have those who were against leaving now having to argue in favour of leaving and vice versa.

The level of debate from the start in the UK I found very poor. There appeared to be project fantasy and project fear and either appeared to be particularly truthful. I would not have been in favour of a second referendum but much has come out since that when terms are known I think it makes sense. Logically the only ones who would argue against are those who voted leave and are concerned if there was another vote that would no longer be the case. If they were confident the UK would vote the same way again why would they be bothered about another vote. In most other walks of life as more facts and information becomes available people consider, take into account and may or may not change the point of view. If I go to my doctor and he thinks I may have A and sends me for tests only to find I have B he does not say sorry I diagnosed you with having A and whilst I appreciate new information shows you have B I am going to stick treating you for A as that was by original diagnosis.

What appals me most though is the continuing lack of honesty. If people wanted to vote because of "little Englander" mentality whilst I may or may not agree with them I respect their views. Many of these would appear to accept that any economic effect arising from leaving the EU is worth it for "taking back control" Again whilst I may or may not agree with them I respect their views.  However many still despite all the opinion and evidence to the contrary still appear to present it as fact that leaving the EU will have no effect on the Economy or will be boon. In 15 or 20 of years time that may be the case but none of us really know and it will depend on what trading relationships are agreed with parties who in negotiating will only be looking out for their own interest. I still hear May referring to having a special and meaningful relationship with the EU going forward and talking as if the EU will basically be happy to give the UK favourable trading terms that will in effect give the UK access to the single market on similar terms to the present. That is not what the countries of the EU are saying and in makes no logical sense as if the UK gets what it says will happen then there is no point in any country being part of the EU.

Now the UK Govt may know where it wants to get to, although I see little evidence that they do but it would be nice if they would say what it is rather than still suggesting that the UK can have the cake and eat it option. It may be simply leaving on WTO rules with a few small carve outs for a bit of cash, which except for the cash would make many of those anti the EU happy. Again I may not agree with that but at least we would know where the UK is going and where the IoM might stand. I still struggle to understand that 18 months after the vote it is still difficult to  define the UK's position except to want everything it likes and to discard anything it does not. I want to be a multi billionaire with glamorous women queuing at my door but unfortunately we tend not to get what we want.

Bringing back to Question Time there was a comment made that in the main very few expected a leave vote, even Farage did not, and consequently nobody appeared to have thought or planned for the consequences of a leave vote. Whilst it is the UK who are choosing to leave and were able to set the timetable in my view their position still remains totally unclear to me whereas the EU's is well stated i.e. the UK will have to pay some amount of money  and as it is leaving the EU it will not get anything like ongoing free access to the single market. OK that might change but at least the EU has a definite position. I just wish the UK had as well.   

I thought it was somewhat ironic that Nicky Morgan MP tory rebel came in for plenty of stick like "undermining Teresa May" etc etc until it was pointed out that a main reason brexiteers voted Leave was to ensure the sovereignty of the parliament that they were then slagging off for making sure their constituents were represented in the final vote on any brexit deal! Unfortunately that sort of woolley non-thinking seems to be entirely in keeping with brexiteers.

Prof Bob pointed out a lot of ramifications that no-one had considered at the time but are now coming to light. What a total horlicks the whole thing is. He also highlighted just how shallow the campaigning was. There are lots of serious issues that most folks would rather leave to people who know what it's about, like politicians. Now who would trust the likes of Farage, Gove and Johnson to put aside self-interest and look after what is best for their constituents?

Remain voters knew what they were voting for because it was the current status quo. Leave voters had no idea what they were getting into but as long as they got shot of Johnny Foreigner it would be worth any amount of economic pain. Time will tell on that one but the cost of the divorce bill plus all the other commitments The Maybot has made like re-locating various EU institutions from the UK into the EU ain't going to be cheap. And if there is no freedom of movement for services a lot of the financial institutions will follow them.

I also thought Oakeshotte was absolutely dreadful with her pathetic attempts at point-scoring. Dreadful woman.

 

[woody2]

dominic grieve, anna soubry and nicky morgan's constituencies voted leave...

so they went against there  constituents....

so your point is?

i can't believe none of you remainers have spotted what real happened......

[woody2]

done and dusted, what was all the drama for.....

#rat

[Manximus Aururaneus]

The time is fast approaching when the remoaners are going to have to make a decision;

1. Do they 'shrug their shoulders', accept that they presented their arguments but that they were nevertheless unable to convince the majority of UK voters to agree with their views, and therefore do the usual thing of accepting the will of the majority and get behind the project (as happens in any successful team or organisation) or,

2. Do they refuse to accept the result and condemn themselves to a lifetime of bitter disappointment?

It's a tough choice, and I don't envy them, but ultimately it's their choice, bad losers are never happy people.

 

 

[Bobbie Bobster]

Roll on BrexRef II.  Teresa's ruled it out, so it's definitely on!

[pongo]

1 hour ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

The time is fast approaching when the remoaners are going to have to make a decision;

You're rather missing the point. Time has moved on and the arguments have shifted. Most people who supported Remain and most who supported Leave roughly agree that there should be some sort of sensible compromise. It's really only a minority of the no-deal extremists and whacky hardliners who continue to try to swim upstream. Move on. Get over it.

[Manximus Aururaneus]

12 minutes ago, pongo said:

You're rather missing the point. Time has moved on and the arguments have shifted. Most people who supported Remain and most who supported Leave roughly agree that there should be some sort of sensible compromise. It's really only a minority of the no-deal extremists and whacky hardliners who continue to try to swim upstream. Move on. Get over it.

Meanwhile, back in the real world.....

Article 50 1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements. 100% Done 2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention.Tick. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament. 3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.  15 Months to go. 4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it. A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. 5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

 

To quote a certain Frenchman - "The Clock ees a ticking".