So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[woody2]

20 minutes ago, pongo said:

You're rather missing the point. Time has moved on and the arguments have shifted. Most people who supported Remain and most who supported Leave roughly agree that there should be some sort of sensible compromise. It's really only a minority of the no-deal extremists and whacky hardliners who continue to try to swim upstream. Move on. Get over it.

most people support leaving now, its just a few sad losers that can't accept the uk is leaving the eu.....

all the remain propaganda is now known to be false.....

#getoveritmoveon

[woody2]

1 hour ago, Bobbie Bobster said:

Roll on BrexRef II.  Teresa's ruled it out, so it's definitely on!

the idea clearly went down well, look at the libdums.....

[P.K.]

 

2 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

The time is fast approaching when the remoaners are going to have to make a decision;

1. Do they 'shrug their shoulders', accept that they presented their arguments but that they were nevertheless unable to convince the majority of UK voters to agree with their views, and therefore do the usual thing of accepting the will of the majority and get behind the project (as happens in any successful team or organisation) or,

This statement "accept that they presented their arguments but that they were nevertheless unable to convince the majority of UK voters to agree with their views" is a bit of a nonsense really. As we all know the likes of Farage, Gove and Johnson started out their campaign with their farcical and completely untrue "£350 M to the NHS" crapulence.  When they realised it simply wasn't working, probably because it was so easy to rubbish, they then shamelessly played the "Johnny Foreigner" card. Talk about the Remainers playing on peoples fears! Frankly I thought their picture of desperate refugees fleeing a war zone was probably the nadir of any campaign I have ever witnessed.

So not so much the Remain campaign were unable to convince voters but more they didn't appeal to the baser instincts of the electorate like the shameless Leave organisers and their empty promises.

2 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

2. Do they refuse to accept the result and condemn themselves to a lifetime of bitter disappointment?

If the projections are true (and as they all agree that's very likely) and at my age I think the Leave vote has condemned me not so much to a lifetime of bitter disappointment (I'm not that sort of person) but rather to a lifetime with a lower standard of living.

So it's not so much a tough choice or bad losers are unhappy people but more we ALL lose.

 

[pongo]

14 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.  15 Months to go.

It's very likely that the period will be extended. Not because of some wish to prevent Britain from leaving - but because Britain needs to exit in a sensible and controlled manner which creates the minimum of turbulence. Nobody sensible is looking for any other outcome. It's clear today that exit is not a binary thing - in and out. It's much more nuanced than that because so much of what Britain will need to retain is currently woven into agreements which are tied up with membership.

As I said, the arguments have moved on. Only a minority supports a bridge burning retreat.

Edited December 16, 2017 by pongo

[Manximus Aururaneus]

2 minutes ago, pongo said:

It's very likely that the period will be extended. Not because of some wish to prevent Britain from leaving - but because Britain needs to exit in a sensible and controlled manner which creates the minimum of turbulence. Nobody sensible is looking for any other outcome. It's clear today that exit is not a binary thing - in and out. It's much more nuanced than that because so much of what Britain will need to retain is currently woven into agreements which are tied up with membership.

As I said, the arguments have moved on. Only a minority supports a bridge burning retreat.

Do you consider yourself to be a 'EU Citizen'?

[pongo]

4 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

Do you consider yourself to be a 'EU Citizen'?

I *am* an EU Citizen currently. It’s not about what I consider. Hardliners sometimes argue that there is no such thing since the EU is not a country. But that would be to take a very narrow and pedantic view. And the concept of EU Citizenship is effectively enshrined in The Maastricht Treaty,

[Manximus Aururaneus]

2 minutes ago, pongo said:

I *am* an EU Citizen currently. It’s not about what I consider. Hardliners sometimes argue that there is no such thing since the EU is not a country. But that would be to take a very narrow and pedantic view. And the concept of EU Citizenship is effectively enshrined in The Maastricht Treaty,

Do you think that you will still be an EU Citizen in April 2019?

[Manximus Aururaneus]

On 12/10/2017 at 11:07 AM, Shake me up Judy said:

I can see a move against May coming in the next week. Now's the time to put up or shut up for the hard Brexiteers.

Clock eees ticking on this one too.

[pongo]

3 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

Do you think that you will still be an EU Citizen in April 2019?

It’s completely irrelevant with respect to the manner in which Britain negotiates a sensible exit from the EU.

[P.K.]

24 minutes ago, pongo said:

It’s completely irrelevant with respect to the manner in which Britain negotiates a sensible exit from the EU.

True.

But if you think Brexit is a really really stupid idea then you have to get used to Leave supporters trying to wind you up.

The fact that EVERYONE knows we are going to leave seems to have passed them by. A bit like the current inflation rate being at a six year high with wages failing to keep up. You know, living standards falling. But it hits hardest on those with very little to start with and they probably live in a tower block and don't vote tory so fuck 'em a la Margaret Thatcher....

[Manximus Aururaneus]

48 minutes ago, pongo said:

It’s completely irrelevant with respect to the manner in which Britain negotiates a sensible exit from the EU.

No, it is not at all irrelevant - that is what so-called 'remainers' readily dismiss as irrelevant or unimportant - but it really does miss the point.

You yourself said  "And the concept of EU Citizenship is effectively enshrined in The Maastricht Treaty".  I agree, it is. But that is what is so offensive to leavers - it never should have been!

That is why I asked you the question - because no longer  being a citizen after March 2019 means being no longer bound by these treaties.

The trade deal is and always was of secondary importance to leavers - getting out of what was sold as a 'Common market' but was actually a massive 'Political Project' (denied for decades but now openly admitted) was always the priority.

You have got this 'Hard Brexit' thing absolutely 180 Deg out - It is not leavers (such as myself) that will determine a 'Hard' or 'Soft' Brexit - it is the offer from the EU that will determine which it is. Of course I would prefer a 'close, frictionless trade arrangement' - who the hell wouldn't? BUT - I am not prepared to sell my soul to an unelected, undemocratic political project in order to achieve it.

So, preference number 1. would always be a close, frictionless trading arrangement (let's call it a 'Common Market'!) - a 'soft' Brexit if you like, but, and it's a big but, If the  EU is determined to state that a 'Common Market' is not any longer on offer, and what we have to sign up to is a 'Political Project' in order to access a single market, then if that is all that they will offer, let's let's say no, sorry, but no.

It is not the Brexiteers who perpetuated the biggest lie in Europe, secretly peddled for decades by Jean Monnett, De-Gaulle, Ted Heath and the rest, it was deliberately planned to dupe millions of people into a massive socialist political project without either the support, knowledge or vote of the population.

It has failed, not because leavers are nationalists, but because, at it's heart, it was and is based on one gigantic lie.

If hard Brexit does come about, it will not because that it what leavers want (we don't) - it will be because Brussels refuses to negotiate free trade without simultaneous signing up to 'The Political Project'.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Manximus Aururaneus

[mojomonkey]

I really think you need to stop sitting on the fence.

[Manximus Aururaneus]

2 minutes ago, mojomonkey said:

I really think you need to stop sitting on the fence.

I apologise if I said something on the fencive.

[pongo]

17 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

the biggest lie in Europe, secretly peddled for decades by Jean Monnett, De-Gaulle, Ted Heath and the rest, it was deliberately planned to dupe millions of people into a massive socialist political project without either the support, knowledge or vote of the population

I very much hope that Britain's future trading relationships will not ultimately be significantly influenced by conspiracy theorists.

[Manximus Aururaneus]

4 minutes ago, pongo said:

I very much hope that Britain's future trading relationships will not ultimately be significantly influenced by conspiracy theorists.

Afraid I cannot let you get away with that one Pongo.

Are you saying that the 'European Coal & Steel Community' is a conspiracy theory?

Are you saying the European Economic Community (EEC) 1958 is a conspiracy Theory?

Are you saying that the Treaty of Rome 1957 is a conspiracy theory?

Are you saying that the European Parliament (1979) was known about all along?

Are you saying that the 1973 and 1975 referendums did not use the phrase 'European Economic Community' when asking us to join / stay in?

 

Really?