So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[Tarne]

Pretty much. Plenty of airlines were government ran and then got into trouble over EU funding when their governments bailed them out which was later declared illegal. (Malev and Cyprus Airways are two examples off the top of my head)

[P.K.]

It's an easy shot. However, consider that this is not the first time we've been here. The last time these plants were under threat was as recently as 2012. Also, if leaving the EU had not arisen, and part French goverThere has also been the usual cock-eyed reporting on it, tying it to Brexit. For instance, the BBC Economics correspondent made a big deal about the cost of imported components being greater since the decline in the value of Sterling. Interestingly, he didn't say one single word about the consequent lower cost of the finished vehicle when exported to Europe which would be a far greater benefit than the cost of components is an impediment. A striking and indisputable example of the slanted reporting we hear day in, day out from the neutral BBC.

 

As woody2 says, it is interesting that the French state is the owner here. Is this not state support of the most fundamental kind? This is supposed to be anathema to the EU.

 

Dear me.

 

You really are fixated aren't you....?

 

Let's start with an alternative fact. The French State is not the owner of PSA. They hold about 14% (although that figure was supplied by that bastion of communism that is the BBC).

 

Then there's the simple fact that UK manufacturing has been in decline for a while. So they have to import components. And it doesn't matter a stuff how cheaper/more expensive the finished product is to export.

 

Because like the xenophobic thick as pigshit Daily Wail reading Little Englanders there is absolutely NO WAY any meaningful financial projections can be made for the profitability or otherwise of the two UK plants post Brexit because the negotiations on things like tariffs have yet to take place.

 

If I was PSA, bearing in mind that UK workers to not enjoy the same level of job protection of their EU co-workers, I would simply close them down because it's a lot cheaper to do than elsewhere. Then you can make meaningful projections around your business model.

 

IF it takes place!

 

Over the last 16 years GM Europe has lost something like $15 bn (figures supplied by that Kremlin mouthpiece that is the insidious BBC....)

 

I know what I would do....

[woolley]

@ PK. You haven't addressed the entirely reasonable points I made in response to your posts. You have just gone off on yet another abusive rant as you always do. You are guilty of what you accuse Brexiteers of - irrationality. Just keep an eye on that blood pressure.

 

The fact you gave was not alternative at all. I said in my post that the French state was a PART owner. Similarly, you have not commented on my narrative of the French government lobbying to save UK jobs at the expense of French ones under similar circumstances in the event that the UK had remained in the EU. Of course it would not do so. So in this matter Brexit is largely irrelevant. You simply used it to make a spurious point.

 

Of course manufacturing has been in decline thanks to globalisation. This does not detract at all from the point I made regarding the BBC reporting of higher component costs but the absence of mention of the far greater benefit to the competitiveness of the finished product. Is that not rather strange and questionable from a supposedly neutral source?

Edited February 20, 2017 by woolley

[P.K.]

"Part owner" - I think not craven running dog of the unacceptable face of capitalism:

 

As woody2 says, it is interesting that the French state is the owner here.

What I posted is absolutely correct as per the future sustainability of Luton and Ellesmere Port post Brexit i.e. you're talking through your arse as it's all a big unknown. If I was buying the whole organisation I know which part I would offload simply to remove uncertainty.

 

Go spin...

[woolley]

Yes, but further up the post:

and part French government owned Peugeot

PART OWNED. Read the whole thing. The extract you quoted was later in my post and contracted to "owner" simply for brevity.

 

The point remains that if this same scenario arose outwith the Brexit situation, none of the fundamentals for decision making would be any different.

 

French government involved with influence.

UK jobs v German jobs v French jobs.

 

Again, as usual, you do not address a perfectly reasonable analysis with a factual one of your own and fall back on abuse like the big daft kid in the playground.

[woody2]

a boycott of EDF will hurt them

[P.K.]

Again, as usual, you do not address a perfectly reasonable analysis with a factual one of your own and fall back on abuse like the big daft kid in the playground.

Errrr..... Excuse me but less of the "big" if you don't mind...!

 

 

The point remains that if this same scenario arose outwith the Brexit situation, none of the fundamentals for decision making would be any different.

 

French government involved with influence.

UK jobs v German jobs v French jobs.

Well here in Reality Land there was a possibility that the whole group would remain intact because thanks to good investments the Ellesmere Port and Luton sites are quite efficient. It's not helped by UK manufacturing being in decline so more components have to be imported but as you posted previously the end product was just about competitive.

 

Thanks to the xenophobic thick as pigshit Daily Wail reading Little Englanders however that competitive edge will almost certainly be lost due to the extremely high chance of import/export tariffs tipping the balance against them.

 

As anyone who has been made redundant will know the closure of the plants should be the last thing anyone wants.

 

Unfortunately though it looks like the shape of things to come post Brexit.

[woolley]

Couple of points from that (ignoring the usual abusive bits):

 

"The end product was just about competitive" And will now be even more so with the current lower pound.

 

"high chance of import/export tariffs etc". Unlikely to be tariffs on vehicles because European manufacturers want to sell into the UK market and they will make sure there is an agreement. Why would they cut off their nose to spite our face.

 

"post Brexit" We have no idea what the EU will look like in two years. It is highly unlikely to look like it does now.

[woody2]

It's not helped by UK manufacturing being in decline

its not....

 

[P.K.]

Couple of points from that (ignoring the usual abusive bits):

 

"The end product was just about competitive" And will now be even more so with the current lower pound.

 

"high chance of import/export tariffs etc". Unlikely to be tariffs on vehicles because European manufacturers want to sell into the UK market and they will make sure there is an agreement. Why would they cut off their nose to spite our face.

 

"post Brexit" We have no idea what the EU will look like in two years. It is highly unlikely to look like it does now.

 

The master of the obvious.

 

When you're importing a lot of stuff with a weak pound the end product is NOT cheaper to produce.

 

I would be amazed if there were no tariffs pour encourage les autres.

 

Serious question and this time I'm not baiting you: do you think that the current government will be able to agree free movement of labour in return for free movement of goods and services?

[woody2]

no

[woolley]

 

Couple of points from that (ignoring the usual abusive bits):

 

"The end product was just about competitive" And will now be even more so with the current lower pound.

 

"high chance of import/export tariffs etc". Unlikely to be tariffs on vehicles because European manufacturers want to sell into the UK market and they will make sure there is an agreement. Why would they cut off their nose to spite our face.

 

"post Brexit" We have no idea what the EU will look like in two years. It is highly unlikely to look like it does now.

 

The master of the obvious.

 

When you're importing a lot of stuff with a weak pound the end product is NOT cheaper to produce.

 

I would be amazed if there were no tariffs pour encourage les autres.

 

Serious question and this time I'm not baiting you: do you think that the current government will be able to agree free movement of labour in return for free movement of goods and services?

 

Re import/export with weaker pound: It's not that simple. It depends how much value is added within the UK economy and the margins involved. For instance, if the imported element was only 5% of the value of the finished product then the exchange rate is likely to have a positive impact on export volumes, whereas if the imported element was 90% it would be a negative. With big ticket items like vehicles the value added is high.

 

I don't think there is any prospect of the UK government either seeking such an arrangement on free movement or accepting one if offered. They will not believe that either the public or the Tory party itself would wear it. It is one of the red line principles of being in the EU which have led to a loss of sovereignty and on that basis control has to revert to the UK. I don't subscribe to "hard Brexit" and "soft Brexit", incidentally. It's like degrees of pregnancy. There is only "in the EU" with free movement et al or, "Brexit" which is outside. Half in and half out would be an ongoing running sore.

 

I wouldn't overestimate the strength of the centre in Brussels as they are clearly in retreat. They may want tariffs pour encourager les autres as you say, but ranged against them will be very powerful vested interests all over the continent, not least in Germany, who will want to have as few restrictions as possible. Follow the money. National governments will also have an eye to which way the wind is blowing with their voters who include exporters and their employees. I would not be at all surprised to see the likes of Juncker and Tusk totally bypassed in the not too distant future as "their" EU is rejected. I don't discount the possibility of a totally new relationship based purely on trade among totally independent and sovereign nations emerging in Europe in the medium term. That would be a good result. Europe has brought its ills on itself through this megastate project.

Edited February 21, 2017 by woolley

[winnie]

If i we're PSA, would i want to build a new factory in France or Germany and take on the huge employemt costs and burden's associated with these countries, or would i keep an already established factory in the UK with flexiable employment regulations, low wages when exchange rates are taken into account, and a very probable large financial injection from the UK government (legal subsidy by a non EU country). The french know how successful the Renault owned Nissan plant in Sunderland has been, and may look to move some GM production from germany to the UK - just like VW have moved lots of production to Eastern Europe.

 

To be honest PSA and Vauxhall / Opel make some shocking vehicles - proberbly the worst currently for sale in europe.

[woody2]

a labour mp said yesterday people voted for brexit to get rid of cameron, that doesn't add up when just months before he won a general election. it was a rejection of the disastrous labour policies of opening the uk up to eastern europe

[woolley]

 

 

 

Serious question and this time I'm not baiting you: do you think that the current government will be able to agree free movement of labour in return for free movement of goods and services?

 

 

I wouldn't overestimate the strength of the centre in Brussels as they are clearly in retreat. They may want tariffs pour encourager les autres as you say, but ranged against them will be very powerful vested interests all over the continent, not least in Germany, who will want to have as few restrictions as possible. Follow the money. National governments will also have an eye to which way the wind is blowing with their voters who include exporters and their employees. I would not be at all surprised to see the likes of Juncker and Tusk totally bypassed in the not too distant future as "their" EU is rejected. I don't discount the possibility of a totally new relationship based purely on trade among totally independent and sovereign nations emerging in Europe in the medium term. That would be a good result. Europe has brought its ills on itself through this megastate project.

 

Coincidentally, following on from yesterday's above post, there was an interesting juxtaposition of views reported on R4 Today this morning. Already differences are emerging between the EU centre and individual countries' national interests There was the Brussels/Juncker line of "the huge bill" for Britain, of course, but Stephan Mayer of the German CDU was singing a different tune entirely.

 

Report here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39042876

 

If national political and industrial leaders on the continent start to see their UK market threatened by Brussels obstinacy, it will very quickly become "Jean-Claude who?"