P.K. Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 2 hours ago, quilp said: That's pushing it... OK, as deep as the polarisation achieved by the revolting Thatcher creature then! "Ding, dong..." etc etc. 23 years after her party unceremoniously booted her out of the HoC. Whoever said the UK electorate have short memories must have penned it prior to her tenure..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 15 hours ago, pongo said: ... the sound of another Brexit, so-called, red-line zooming past. Meanwhile, political deadlock. And Britain more hatefully divided than ever. And it’s not only Brexit - that’s just become the focus of a much wider division. It’s as profound as the division which emerged in the US over Vietnam and which has never healed. the bill went through its 3rd reading ok so no political deadlock face it you lost...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 interesting the new eu guidelines breach international laws..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 On 28/01/2018 at 5:21 PM, Freggyragh said: Would one of the geniuses on here who equate the EU with the Nazis please explain why Poland didn’t just have a referendum in September 1939? If Leave had won they could have exited the Third Reich without getting anyone else involved. eu is run for the benefit of germany both politicly and financially........ who would of thought germany would again.... build ghettos..... gas people...... ship large amounts of people around europe to camps.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 22 hours ago, quilp said: That's pushing it... I disagree. Vietnam exposed divisons which already existed and which will never heal - between people who were and remain fundamentally and, in many ways, irreconcilably different. It was about much more than the war - it was around the issue of “my country, right or wrong” - a kind of dull nationalism which no reasonable person would ever support. In many ways Brexit has done a similar thing to the UK. Exposed equivalent divisons. It’s certainly not only Brexit which Britain disagrees with itself about. It’s a division between “patriotic” common sensers - and the pragmatic; between the young and the old in many cases; between those somewhat left behind and those who are essentially optimistic (whether economically or culturally). It’s not about Brexit anymore. It’s about how reasonable people can ever find accommodation with people like Woody, their attitude and style . And should we even have to? The sort of people who will idiotically post stuff like this and find it funny: 1 hour ago, woody2 said: who would of thought germany would again.... build ghettos..... gas people...... ship large amounts of people around europe to camps.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 8 hours ago, woody2 said: face it you lost...... You’re absolutely right. You are the 52%. It’s people exactly like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 22 minutes ago, pongo said: I disagree. Vietnam exposed divisons which already existed and which will never heal - between people who were and remain fundamentally and, in many ways, irreconcilably different. It was about much more than the war - it was around the issue of “my country, right or wrong” - a kind of dull nationalism which no reasonable person would ever support. Did you see the recent Ken Burns docu on Vietnam? A friend sent me the unedited version. Some of the recordings of telecon exchanges between Pres Johnson and various aides, the military etc etc were scarily illuminating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 20 hours ago, P.K. said: OK, as deep as the polarisation achieved by the revolting Thatcher creature then! You have a hugely overblown view of the power of Thatcher which you trot out now and then. More than most politicians she was a prisoner of the forces of her time and had little power to influence events over which she nominally presided or, I would contend, much understanding of their complexities. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 51 minutes ago, P.K. said: Did you see the recent Ken Burns docu on Vietnam? Some of it. It's been praised by all sides of the division in America. I read an interesting factoid which came out of that programme: When the protesting students were murdered by the National Guard at Kent State University, 58% of Americans believed the shootings were justified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 3 hours ago, pongo said: I disagree. Vietnam exposed divisons which already existed and which will never heal - between people who were and remain fundamentally and, in many ways, irreconcilably different. It was about much more than the war - it was around the issue of “my country, right or wrong” - a kind of dull nationalism which no reasonable person would ever support. In many ways Brexit has done a similar thing to the UK. Exposed equivalent divisons. It’s certainly not only Brexit which Britain disagrees with itself about. It’s a division between “patriotic” common sensers - and the pragmatic; between the young and the old in many cases; between those somewhat left behind and those who are essentially optimistic (whether economically or culturally). It’s not about Brexit anymore. It’s about how reasonable people can ever find accommodation with people like Woody, their attitude and style . And should we even have to? The sort of people who will idiotically post stuff like this and find it funny: you mean the truth...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I think Thatcher was a product of her times. The ‘entitled’ generation had come pretty close to crippling the U.K. whilst standing round braziers, refusing to work. That had to be stopped. Thatcher had to move the economy away from manufacturing because too many baby boomers were just too entitled and bone idle to work, so any honest assessment of Thatcher has to give credit to her for the economic changes that fuelled the post-Maastricht economic boom in the U.K. In my opinion, she also did the world a service by defeating the fascist regime of Galtieri. Of course, her support for Pinochet and the like blemishes that record, but can be almost forgiven as an act of loyalty. As a scientist she understood the importance of maintaining investment in education and research, and pushed much of the reform and progress that made CERN a success. When elected a fellow of Royal Society in 1988 she chose climate change as the theme of her acceptance speech: ‘we may have unwittingly begun a massive experiment with the system of this planet itself’. Thatcher might not have done much for women in terms of her legislative program, but she was a trailblazer for women. I have a suspicion that much of the vitriol that came her way was pure misogyny. What I find impossible to forgive Thatcher for are her dealings with the regions of England that suffered disproportionately from her economic policies, her behaviour towards Scotland and above all her policies in the north of Ireland. It was a very good thing when John Major took over and laid the groundwork for peace. Anyway, back to this Brexit enigma. I see the Department for Exiting the EU impact assessments have been leaked and, lo and behold, there are no good scenarios forecast for those who believe in unicorns. One surprise was they suggest that agriculture might escape relatively unscathed. I’m wondering what type of agriculture could survive if the U.K. has to seek new trade agreements. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 4 hours ago, pongo said: Vietnam exposed divisons which already existed and which will never heal - between people who were and remain fundamentally and, in many ways, irreconcilably different. It was about much more than the war - it was around the issue of “my country, right or wrong” - a kind of dull nationalism which no reasonable person would ever support. So it wasn't a proxy war between opposing ideologies; communism and capitalism? Which peoples remain, 'fundamentally and... ... Irreconcilably different"...? Is this a cultural reference? How did you arrive at the issue, "my country, right or wrong ... ... a kind of dull nationalism..."? Genuinely interested, if you don't mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Freggyragh said: Anyway, back to this Brexit enigma. I see the Department for Exiting the EU impact assessments have been leaked and, lo and behold, there are no good scenarios forecast for those who believe in unicorns. One surprise was they suggest that agriculture might escape relatively unscathed. I’m wondering what type of agriculture could survive if the U.K. has to seek new trade agreements. Any ideas? What do you expect from all of the same dyed in the wool Remainers that gave us project fear? If they'd been right before we'd be approaching Greek proportions of penury by now. They only have one agenda and that is to stay in the dying EU for a quiet life. That is how bankrupt of creative thought they are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 5 hours ago, woolley said: You have a hugely overblown view of the power of Thatcher which you trot out now and then. More than most politicians she was a prisoner of the forces of her time and had little power to influence events over which she nominally presided or, I would contend, much understanding of their complexities. No I haven't a hugely overblown etc etc. Just ask the miners who were sacrificed on the alter of political dogma. And if she didn't have much understanding of the complexities of the events she presided over then she was a really shit PM. Common ground for once old chap.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 I am no fan of Hilda but I recall the miners were encouraged to sacrifice themselves by Scargill. If you want true political dogma, look back at his aspirations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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