P.K. Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 13 hours ago, quilp said: Most of you smug, whining, hand-wringing, guardian-addicted liberals are still stumbling around in wide-eyed astonishment that all you believed in was roundly rejected by the proles you stand in judgement on. Actually lots and lots of nations are currently looking on the UK with wide-eyed astonishment. So Jacob Rees-Mogg is a prole then. Have you told him? I simply can't understand why the brexiteers get so het up about those who think leaving the EU is a really stupid idea. The UK is leaving and that's that. You've got what you wanted. So simmer down and enjoy the extra £350m going to the NHS every week because the anger you're broadcasting could cause you to burst a blood vessel and need their services.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Freggyragh said: I completely agree, if you’re young take a punt with your spare cash, and if you find a place you like and can afford take out a mortgage - it might turn out to be a good investment. It doesn’t follow that a nation already in debt from two lost wars and the consequences of poorly regulated borrowing, struggling to feed its working poor, cutting back it’s armed forces, a pensioner heavy demographic and no assets left to sell should devalue it’s currency, severely damage its trading position and massively increase its civil service payroll for the sake of a wild speculation. come on you can do better than that...... #fakenews 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, P.K. said: Actually lots and lots of nations are currently looking on the UK with wide-eyed astonishment. So Jacob Rees-Mogg is a prole then. Have you told him? I simply can't understand why the brexiteers get so het up about those who think leaving the EU is a really stupid idea. The UK is leaving and that's that. You've got what you wanted. So simmer down and enjoy the extra £350m going to the NHS every week because the anger you're broadcasting could cause you to burst a blood vessel and need their services.... the mp with more support of other mp's than may and corbyn put together....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, ballaughbiker said: Is this debate? is that all you are going to add..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 anyway merkel has other things to worry about like berlusconi ahead in the polls..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 12 hours ago, P.K. said: Those who voted remain voted for the status quo. Those who voted leave voted for a leap in the dark. With that attitude we'd still be living in caves. It's putting up with the mediocre for fear of finding something worse, without considering the potential upside. It's also lazy thinking. The EU is not pickled in aspic, unchanging for all time. It is not the "Common Market" we joined in 1973, and neither will it stay the same as it is today going forward. The political and financial stresses and strains within it are incredible and insurmountable. Thus far they have been brushed under the carpet because everyone fears questioning "The Project". So talk of the "status quo" in this context is a non sequitur. That option does not exist, so your choice is to consider what an independent UK looks like a decade or two from now and what the EU might look like. From what I can see, the current thinking in the EU is to fast track integration as much as possible to lock in anyone else who might also consider leaving down the track, so it is becoming ever more ruled from the centre rather than less. What this will lead to politically across the 27 is anybody's guess, but I think it prudent to be well out of the way when it really starts to kick off. I can't say whether there will be a cut or an increase in growth between now and 2030, but the important thing to remember is neither can anyone else. I've been involved in business and investments all of my adult life and the one thing you learn early, if you have any sense, is not to pay too much heed to so-called experts. Their pontifications are confounded more frequently than vindicated. For confirmation of the veracity of this statement one need only study the history. If experts were any good they would be busily investing and trading rather than being paid a fortune for spreading their flawed views. I do know that UK trade from around the world, including Europe, will continue at least at or near its current level because there is every financial imperative for that to be the case, and absolutely no incentive for any country not to make it happen. I am convinced that to leave the EU now is by far the most attractive option for the future well being and cohesion of the UK, even though it may cause some personal inconvenience to me and, who knows, maybe some financial loss in the short term. Some fundamentals are of a higher order and far more important than a little financial discomfiture. I note the concurrent meeting of the EU to thrash out the budget ramifications of Brexit and naturally the payers don't want to pay more and those on the teat don't want to claim less. It's quite a problem, apparently. At the same time comes news that there is a rumpus about how to reallocate UK MEP seats when they depart the Parliament. Any rational person, group or organisation, especially one simultaneously crying poverty, would simply abolish the whole lot. It's the only logical thing to do, but not in the shiny halls of Brussels. Instead they are going to share 28 of them around other member states. Why? There was even a proposal, promoted by Macron, for "pan-EU" MEPs who would presumably represent nobody other than the EU itself. How utterly EU! https://www.baltictimes.com/european_parliament_decides_on_reallocation_of_uk_seats_after_brexit/ https://www.politico.eu/article/parliament-votes-down-plan-for-pan-european-meps/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phat Tog Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Excellent post Woolley - agree with everything. I note that Digby Jones is very much in favour of leaving. I know he's an 'expert' and note your comments on that subject, but he has vast experience in business and if it was a given that business would suffer when we leave I would presume to find him in the other camp... I voted leave because I don't want to be part of a United States of Europe, governed by Brussels and by people in whom I have no faith and no power to unelect. The EU 'project' is nothing more than an exercise in empire building and as I mentioned elsewhere, the thing all empires have in common is that they are destined to fail. I would sooner we were independent of the EU when that happens. Juncker would have us believe that he doesn't want this but then calls for greater centralised control. The USSR failed, in my opinion, because it was too large an area to be successfully controlled centrally. As the EU 'empire' expands (most of the former Yugoslavian states and Albania seem to be next to be sucked in) it too will become to large for central governance. I accept that leaving is a leap of faith but I also believe that in the long term we will be the better for it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 These issues are obviously very emotive and therefore divisive. Perhaps we should from now on look at what we agree on rather than what we disagree on. Quilp has got the right idea ducking out of discussing this further. I'm going to join him. Richard and Woody can have these Brexit threads to themselves from now on. Cheers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paswt Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 4 hours ago, ballaughbiker said: Just a few unconnected observations Gambling with your own money and risk is fine and I like that. I am not so keen with (collective) you gambling with the country's money and future though and finally, quilp. I hope you're ok......never seen such apparent anger in your posts. I would venture to suggest that those who have been entrusted with the "country's money" haven't exactly covered themselves in glory, though individually they've probably feathered their own nests fairly adequately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Digby Jones was a partner at a third rate Birmingham law firm before moving to the CBI. He wouldn't get a job at any of the top twenty UK law firms, because he is demonstrably third tier. If Nigel Boardman or Anthony Salz were talking, people might listen. Jones is a nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 20 minutes ago, pongo said: These issues are obviously very emotive and therefore divisive. Perhaps we should from now on look at what we agree on rather than what we disagree on. Quilp has got the right idea ducking out of discussing this further. I'm going to join him. Richard and Woody can have these Brexit threads to themselves from now on. Cheers I quite agree. There is probably little that any of us can say now that we haven't rehearsed time and again. We all know what each other think, and we all know that we are never going to convince the other side without the evidence of experience. It's something that we crave the answer to, but we can't have the answer for decades. Rolling news services suffer from the same problem so they haul people in to give their two penn'orth, but the common denominator (as I said in my post above) is that it's all merely opinion and nothing more. It is bent to whichever way the editorial policy of the organisation leans. In the real world, we have to wait and see. In fact I discussed this with Quilp by PM when we were so disenchanted and took such a long hiatus that people were speculating that we were banned. Since returning I have cut it right back. Just post Brexit, I had the window minimised when working in the office and tended to post responses in real time to what I saw as ludicrous Remain scare stories. It's easy to get sucked in when views are so polarised. I only come in now when (usually) PK posts something like his "status quo" remark above, that gets my finger twitching. I appreciate fully that the endless regurgitation of positions is going nowhere. The inevitable wave of déjà vu that sweeps over me when contributing to threads on the subject attests to this. In my lifetime - and thinking back way before that into history - I cannot remember another issue on which each half of the population so fervently believes the other is stark raving bonkers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, woolley said: With that attitude we'd still be living in caves. It's putting up with the mediocre for fear of finding something worse, without considering the potential upside. It's also lazy thinking. The EU is not pickled in aspic, unchanging for all time. It is not the "Common Market" we joined in 1973, and neither will it stay the same as it is today going forward. The political and financial stresses and strains within it are incredible and insurmountable. Thus far they have been brushed under the carpet because everyone fears questioning "The Project". So talk of the "status quo" in this context is a non sequitur. That option does not exist, so your choice is to consider what an independent UK looks like a decade or two from now and what the EU might look like. From what I can see, the current thinking in the EU is to fast track integration as much as possible to lock in anyone else who might also consider leaving down the track, so it is becoming ever more ruled from the centre rather than less. What this will lead to politically across the 27 is anybody's guess, but I think it prudent to be well out of the way when it really starts to kick off. I can't say whether there will be a cut or an increase in growth between now and 2030, but the important thing to remember is neither can anyone else. I've been involved in business and investments all of my adult life and the one thing you learn early, if you have any sense, is not to pay too much heed to so-called experts. Their pontifications are confounded more frequently than vindicated. For confirmation of the veracity of this statement one need only study the history. If experts were any good they would be busily investing and trading rather than being paid a fortune for spreading their flawed views. I do know that UK trade from around the world, including Europe, will continue at least at or near its current level because there is every financial imperative for that to be the case, and absolutely no incentive for any country not to make it happen. I am convinced that to leave the EU now is by far the most attractive option for the future well being and cohesion of the UK, even though it may cause some personal inconvenience to me and, who knows, maybe some financial loss in the short term. Some fundamentals are of a higher order and far more important than a little financial discomfiture. I note the concurrent meeting of the EU to thrash out the budget ramifications of Brexit and naturally the payers don't want to pay more and those on the teat don't want to claim less. It's quite a problem, apparently. At the same time comes news that there is a rumpus about how to reallocate UK MEP seats when they depart the Parliament. Any rational person, group or organisation, especially one simultaneously crying poverty, would simply abolish the whole lot. It's the only logical thing to do, but not in the shiny halls of Brussels. Instead they are going to share 28 of them around other member states. Why? There was even a proposal, promoted by Macron, for "pan-EU" MEPs who would presumably represent nobody other than the EU itself. How utterly EU! https://www.baltictimes.com/european_parliament_decides_on_reallocation_of_uk_seats_after_brexit/ https://www.politico.eu/article/parliament-votes-down-plan-for-pan-european-meps/ How I wish I had your spare time.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, P.K. said: How I wish I had your spare time.... Says the man who often posts whilst quaffing wine on some idyllic Iberian balcón. It's called efficiency and high level productivity, PK. I seldom post on here when I'm not also working. I don't waste my spare time on it. I'm a bit like Richard in that respect, although I'm working for myself, of course. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, pongo said: These issues are obviously very emotive and therefore divisive. Perhaps we should from now on look at what we agree on rather than what we disagree on. Quilp has got the right idea ducking out of discussing this further. I'm going to join him. Richard and Woody can have these Brexit threads to themselves from now on. Cheers loser..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 so the uk is working on 21 free trade agreements which will be ready to sign when the uk leaves put to bed the remoans fakenews that it wasn't happening..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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