Barrie Stevens Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Freggyragh said: They need to work out a name for staying in the customs union and paying for it, having lost all influence over how it runs. Any suggestions on what they’ll come up with? A precedent might be the Common Travel Area or CTA of 1922 when the Irish Free State came about but whilst internally self governing had a rather odd dominion status, the same king for a good few years more and despite all was very much attached by invisible yet powerful and essential links to the UK..The trade and business links today are as important to Ireland as they were then... The early developing years of the Irish Free State were a bit of a vague fudge until UK's Ireland Act of 1949 and the Republic of Ireland did not really start to break away until it became an active member of the Common Market in its own right. So if you see the UK as being the British Free State in a state of fudge we could have the Common Customs Area,. the CCA. The Island but not the Channel Islands could be within this zone. The Single Market could likewise be "fudged down" to become the "Common Marketing Area" thus making it look and sound like the Common Market we once thought we were joining and voted to remain in. As regards the Free Movement of Persons (In the economic sense) we could in principle extend the Common Travel Area (CTA) with the proviso that EU people will need work permits and a job to come to in the UK plus Benefits restrictions. The reality of course will be that most work permits like the Isle of Man's will be more or less a "nod through". However, like the fudge that was the Free State the UK will have to pretend that "we have won". The UK will leave the EU just as the Free State left the UK...But...er...But..er ..Mmmm....Maybe we will not see a lot of difference for two or three generations and by then it will not matter. The irony is that Ireland is the key. Ireland could help us win through or it could put the kybosh on it. (Well that's my Monday morning effort!)...Discuss! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Barrie Stevens said: A precedent might be the Common Travel Area or CTA of 1922 when the Irish Free State came about but whilst internally self governing had a rather odd dominion status, the same king for a good few years more and despite all was very much attached by invisible yet powerful and essential links to the UK..The trade and business links today are as important to Ireland as they were then... The early developing years of the Irish Free State were a bit of a vague fudge until UK's Ireland Act of 1949 and the Republic of Ireland did not really start to break away until it became an active member of the Common Market in its own right. So if you see the UK as being the British Free State in a state of fudge we could have the Common Customs Area,. the CCA. The Island but not the Channel Islands could be within this zone. The Single Market could likewise be "fudged down" to become the "Common Marketing Area" thus making it look and sound like the Common Market we once thought we were joining and voted to remain in. As regards the Free Movement of Persons (In the economic sense) we could in principle extend the Common Travel Area (CTA) with the proviso that EU people will need work permits and a job to come to in the UK plus Benefits restrictions. The reality of course will be that most work permits like the Isle of Man's will be more or less a "nod through". However, like the fudge that was the Free State the UK will have to pretend that "we have won". The UK will leave the EU just as the Free State left the UK...But...er...But..er ..Mmmm....Maybe we will not see a lot of difference for two or three generations and by then it will not matter. The irony is that Ireland is the key. Ireland could help us win through or it could put the kybosh on it. (Well that's my Monday morning effort!)...Discuss! The British public voted to get out of the EU. Politicians trying to fudge around this democratic decision will not end well 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rog said: The British public voted to get out of the EU. Politicians trying to fudge around this democratic decision will not end well The British public voted to leave the EU. And this will happen. No one so far has voted on the terms of exit in the knowledge of what those terms may bring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 In addition to the foregoing...The Irish Free State had to pay the UK what was then quite a large "divorce settlement" in order to leave the UK. Quite a lot of similarities including the groups "For" and those "Against" ie the EU Loyalists as it were... The original Irish settlement created the "Ulster Month" when for a brief period there was a United Ireland except that "Ulster" had a month to break away and did so very rapidly hence Northern Ireland.. It all looks a bit similar! Theresa May, or whoever has the poisoned chalice, may sign the agreement effectively keeping the UK inside an EU "fudge" echoing the same words as did Michael Collins: He to the effect that he was signing his own death warrant. Whoever signs us up to an "EU fudge" deal will be doing much the same politically but may do so inwardly knowing that a total break from the EU is not feasible in the circumstances and thus be willing to make that sacrifice. Not sure if their party would be so keen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Barrie Stevens said: In addition to the foregoing...The Irish Free State had to pay the UK what was then quite a large "divorce settlement" in order to leave the UK. Quite a lot of similarities including the groups "For" and those "Against" ie the EU Loyalists as it were... The original Irish settlement created the "Ulster Month" when for a brief period there was a United Ireland except that "Ulster" had a month to break away and did so very rapidly hence Northern Ireland.. It all looks a bit similar! Theresa May, or whoever has the poisoned chalice, may sign the agreement effectively keeping the UK inside an EU "fudge" echoing the same words as did Michael Collins: He to the effect that he was signing his own death warrant. Whoever signs us up to an "EU fudge" deal will be doing much the same politically but may do so inwardly knowing that a total break from the EU is not feasible in the circumstances and thus be willing to make that sacrifice. Not sure if their party would be so keen. A total break from the EU is both feasible and the very best way to go. In the case of the establishing of Eire an entirely different situation was involved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 52 minutes ago, Barrie Stevens said: Listen to the Radio 4 programme that JW gave you the link to...Lots being said on this subject all over the world at the moment. Simple it is not and certainly no cure all. remoan 4...... 24 minutes ago, Barrie Stevens said: The British public voted to leave the EU. And this will happen. No one so far has voted on the terms of exit in the knowledge of what those terms may bring. the vote was clear, leave the eu, single market and customs union..... #simple 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 The question was actually "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" The result can only be categorically said to define leaving the EUSSR!!!! Leaving the single market and customs union was directly addressed by the referendum question and is presumably up for debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 16 minutes ago, mojomonkey said: The question was actually "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" The result can only be categorically said to define leaving the EUSSR!!!! Leaving the single market and customs union was directly addressed by the referendum question and is presumably up for debate. no debate needed, both sides made it very clear it involved leaving the single market and customs union otherwise the uk would still be in the eu..... project fear failed...... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Barrie Stevens said: A precedent might be the Common Travel Area or CTA of 1922 when the Irish Free State came about but whilst internally self governing had a rather odd dominion status, the same king for a good few years more and despite all was very much attached by invisible yet powerful and essential links to the UK..The trade and business links today are as important to Ireland as they were then... The early developing years of the Irish Free State were a bit of a vague fudge until UK's Ireland Act of 1949 and the Republic of Ireland did not really start to break away until it became an active member of the Common Market in its own right. So if you see the UK as being the British Free State in a state of fudge we could have the Common Customs Area,. the CCA. The Island but not the Channel Islands could be within this zone. The Single Market could likewise be "fudged down" to become the "Common Marketing Area" thus making it look and sound like the Common Market we once thought we were joining and voted to remain in. As regards the Free Movement of Persons (In the economic sense) we could in principle extend the Common Travel Area (CTA) with the proviso that EU people will need work permits and a job to come to in the UK plus Benefits restrictions. The reality of course will be that most work permits like the Isle of Man's will be more or less a "nod through". However, like the fudge that was the Free State the UK will have to pretend that "we have won". The UK will leave the EU just as the Free State left the UK...But...er...But..er ..Mmmm....Maybe we will not see a lot of difference for two or three generations and by then it will not matter. The irony is that Ireland is the key. Ireland could help us win through or it could put the kybosh on it. (Well that's my Monday morning effort!)...Discuss! What a load of tripe, Barrie, even for you. First, there were extensive customs duties between the Free State and UK, right up to the single market. Second, Ireland and the UK both had radically different views of what the Treaty and legislation implementing it meant, philosophically and in practical terms. That was the fudge, not the CTA. Third, you clearly misunderstand the common customs area. It’s about external tariffs on imports to the EU, including the CI, not internal excise duties or VAT. The only thing that I do agree on is that the result will take years to disentangle and arrive at a new agreement. In the meantime more and more countries will join customs unions and single market organisations, which will see better prospects to negotiate with the EU than stand alone UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 2 hours ago, John Wright said: What a load of tripe, Barrie, even for you. First, there were extensive customs duties between the Free State and UK, right up to the single market. Second, Ireland and the UK both had radically different views of what the Treaty and legislation implementing it meant, philosophically and in practical terms. That was the fudge, not the CTA. Third, you clearly misunderstand the common customs area. It’s about external tariffs on imports to the EU, including the CI, not internal excise duties or VAT. The only thing that I do agree on is that the result will take years to disentangle and arrive at a new agreement. In the meantime more and more countries will join customs unions and single market organisations, which will see better prospects to negotiate with the EU than stand alone UK It is but a little whimsy and reflection as someone asked what we might call the new set up...I merely jested but with an underlying serious thought to as yet unforeseen changes....That is why I described it as my "Monday morning effort" That being said like a lot of things said in semi-jest it can turn out to follow on quite closely in reality.....We are in uncharted waters... The jest was in the titles as elsewhere in the media others have raised the concept of inventing reassuring names to fudge issues...That being said I would not be at all surprised if my whimsy like many turned out be true in some as unforeseen way....And I do read and listen a lot on the subject. The way I see it the whole thing is like a bet on the Grand National...Anything is possible with even the rank outsiders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 most of the world isn't in the customs unions or single market, the sky isn't going to fall in...... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 6 hours ago, Barrie Stevens said: The British public voted to leave the EU. And this will happen. No one so far has voted on the terms of exit in the knowledge of what those terms may bring. There should not be any terms of anything involved. Just get us out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 6 hours ago, woody2 said: most of the world isn't in the customs unions or single market, the sky isn't going to fall in...... Most of the world that doesn’t have extensive free trade agreements or a huge internal market is dirt poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 12 hours ago, Rog said: There is absolutely NOTHING more important than we get out of the EU and at ANY cost. Just a reminder, millions of people have lost their lives or suffered appalling injury in protecting Britain's sovereignty and borders. We owe it to these people to restore our sovereignty and borders and then start to do whatever must be done to correct the appalling damage done to OUR country as a result of the gross misdeeds that were finally recognised by the majority of British people who democratically voted to GTFO of the dreadful undemocratic and now In the process of imploding EU. To hell with deals with the EU in an attempt by the few to have their cake and eat it but at a cost of ongoing servitude to Brussels, we want OUT. Every brexiteer tub-thumper I have ever come across bangs on and on about "sovereignty" and "taking back control of our borders" but everywhere I go on t'interweb the message I get loud and clear is that it's a load of bs. The government set immigration targets that they have singularly failed to deliver on year after year and won't anytime soon. Hence the Windrush shambles. The EU commission can only propose draft legislation. It has to be agreed by the various elected governments. But hell. Blue passports. That you could have had anyway..... This made me smile: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/this-brexiteer-admitted-he-was-wrong/ Funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 9 hours ago, Freggyragh said: Most of the world that doesn’t have extensive free trade agreements or a huge internal market is dirt poor. that will be the eu then no deal with the 2 largest economies in the world and no deal on the horizon....... its about to lose its 3rd biggest market...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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