pongo Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, woolley said: So in his world, if you don't believe in remaining in the EU you are "mistaken". Perhaps we should all be taken away for re-education as in the former Soviet Union. Idiot. What are you actually on about? Britain is leaving the EU. The JRM UKIP fringe within the Conservative Party is undermining and poisoning that process by attaching ideologically motivated technical conditions. They're basically wreckers. Nobody sensible ever argues for an all or nothing outcome. The JRM UKIP fringe within the Conservative Party is as ideological, crackpot and difficult, in many ways, as Labour's Momentum. They have nothing in common with the mainstream broad-church and One Nation Anglican Conservative tradition. They are behaving like spoiled children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, woolley said: So in his world, if you don't believe in remaining in the EU you are "mistaken". Perhaps we should all be taken away for re-education as in the former Soviet Union. Idiot. Mistaken is a pretty tame epithet compared with those applied by ardent brexiteers about those who don’t think leaving is in the economic, or any other, good. Latest bad news is the evidence of HMRC to a select committee today that MaxFac, the electronic soft economic border solution preferred by JRM and MG will cost £20 billion a year and can’t be ready for 5 years, whilst the other option of collecting EU import duties at the UK border could cost £750 million and be introduced in 3 years. I accept its all opinion, but you base opinion on facts, and experience and history. And those all point to Brexit, especially a hard Brexit or no deal, bringing economic ruin. Edited May 23, 2018 by John Wright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, pongo said: What are you actually on about? Britain is leaving the EU. The JRM UKIP fringe within the Conservative Party is undermining and poisoning that process by attaching ideologically motivated technical conditions. They're basically wreckers. Nobody sensible ever argues for an all or nothing outcome. The JRM UKIP fringe within the Conservative Party is as ideological, crackpot and difficult, in many ways, as Labour's Momentum. They have nothing in common with the mainstream broad-church and One Nation Anglican Conservative tradition. They are behaving like spoiled children. I’m sure that’s true. Pity May is so weak and feeble, and in their thrall. No idea what BoJo is doing consorting with JRM, but if he’s hoping to pick up after May he’s now lost any support he may have had with the middle ground, and the hard brexiteers would happily stick the knife between his shoulder blades because they know he’s not a true believer and only adopting his stance for political advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 26 minutes ago, woolley said: Perhaps we should all be taken away for re-education as in the former Soviet Union. Idiot. I don't understand why you are becoming so aggressive lately. But I remember that you wrote previously here about how you were once in thrall to the Soviet Union. Despite what was known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 "They know that, narrowly, the voters made a mistake..." Opinion. Eloquently and attractively written, but opinion nevertheless. And it reeks of that tired and oft-used mostly middle-class assumption that the great unwashed lacked the integrity to know better and why were they ever given a vote anyway..! In the last couple of paragraphs, he alludes to Eden and Suez, Blair and Iraq, claiming Brexit is worse! A piss-poor analogy considering the outcomes of both those 'campaigns' resulted in great loss of life. Hardly comparable and included for lazy, dramatic effect only. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, quilp said: In the last couple of paragraphs, he alludes to Eden and Suez, Blair and Iraq, claiming Brexit is worse! A piss-poor analogy considering the outcomes of both those 'campaigns' resulted in great loss of life. Hardly comparable and included for lazy, dramatic effect only. The comparison with Suez has a particular resonance for Conservatives of a certain age. And people who know their history. The comparison he is making is specifically political. It's about pigheadedness. It's about continuing in particular direction when all of the best advice is to stop and ask for directions. Suez broke the Conservatives in the same way as Iraq broke Labour. Brexit is breaking the Conservatives again. Edited May 23, 2018 by pongo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, John Wright said: Mistaken is a pretty tame epithet compared with those applied by ardent brexiteers about those who don’t think leaving is in the economic, or any other, good. Latest bad news is the evidence of HMRC to a select committee today that MaxFac, the electronic soft economic border solution preferred by JRM and MG will cost £20 billion a year and can’t be ready for 5 years, whilst the other option of collecting EU import duties at the UK border could cost £750 million and be introduced in 3 years. I accept its all opinion, but you base opinion on facts, and experience and history. And those all point to Brexit, especially a hard Brexit or no deal, bringing economic ruin. these schemes have been put together by pro-remain civil servants from hmrc/ treasury.... mp's have had no choice, jon thompson is scum of the earth, why was a pro eu person put in charge of hmrc in 2016 with no background in the job.... plenty of other choice like treating the eu the same as other markets, which makes up 60% of imports/exports, computer system is already up and running and would result in a gain or the uk.... these 2 scheme aren't acceptable to the eu- why waste any time on project fear solutions..... Edited May 23, 2018 by woody2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, pongo said: What are you actually on about? Britain is leaving the EU. The JRM UKIP fringe within the Conservative Party is undermining and poisoning that process by attaching ideologically motivated technical conditions. They're basically wreckers. Nobody sensible ever argues for an all or nothing outcome. The JRM UKIP fringe within the Conservative Party is as ideological, crackpot and difficult, in many ways, as Labour's Momentum. They have nothing in common with the mainstream broad-church and One Nation Anglican Conservative tradition. They are behaving like spoiled children. its remoans like you that are the wreckers aka losers.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, pongo said: The comparison with Suez has a particular resonance for Conservatives of a certain age. And people who know their history. The comparison he is making is specifically political. It's about pigheadedness. It's about continuing in particular direction when all of the best advice is to stop and ask for directions. Suez broke the Conservatives in the same way as Iraq broke Labour. Brexit is breaking the Conservatives again. That isn’t the point he’s making though, is it. His point is that even though, with hindsight, they were wrong about Suez and Iraq, they believed they were correct and that it was in the best interests of the country. He then says that May knows that Brexit is not good for the country, but, for political power, she plows ahead on that path, blackmailed by JRM and his 60 strong coterie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, John Wright said: That isn’t the point he’s making though, is it. His point is that even though, with hindsight, they were wrong about Suez and Iraq, they believed they were correct and that it was in the best interests of the country. He then says that May knows that Brexit is not good for the country, but, for political power, she plows ahead on that path, blackmailed by JRM and his 60 strong coterie yet may is not going down jrm route..... bizarre remoan conspiracy....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 38 minutes ago, John Wright said: That isn’t the point he’s making though, is it. His point is that even though, with hindsight, they were wrong about Suez and Iraq, they believed they were correct and that it was in the best interests of the country. He then says that May knows that Brexit is not good for the country, She doesn't know that. She doesn't have a crystal ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 59 minutes ago, pongo said: The comparison with Suez has a particular resonance for Conservatives of a certain age. And people who know their history. The comparison he is making is specifically political. It's about pigheadedness. It's about continuing in particular direction when all of the best advice is to stop and ask for directions. Suez broke the Conservatives in the same way as Iraq broke Labour. Brexit is breaking the Conservatives again. The EU has "broken" the Conservatives, and split opinion throughout the country for decades. It is poison for the unity of Britain. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, pongo said: I don't understand why you are becoming so aggressive lately. But I remember that you wrote previously here about how you were once in thrall to the Soviet Union. Despite what was known. Aggressive? Moi? Because I called Parris an idiot? Not at all. I think that is quite charitable given the content of the article. He never changes. I was indeed in thrall to the Soviet Union and that was silly. But I was an impressionable teenager at the time, under the influence of a commie SOGAT branch. They didn't come much more militant than that. As an old man, what is Parris's excuse for his blathering foibles? Edited May 23, 2018 by woolley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 3 hours ago, John Wright said: Mistaken is a pretty tame epithet compared with those applied by ardent brexiteers about those who don’t think leaving is in the economic, or any other, good. Latest bad news is the evidence of HMRC to a select committee today that MaxFac, the electronic soft economic border solution preferred by JRM and MG will cost £20 billion a year and can’t be ready for 5 years, whilst the other option of collecting EU import duties at the UK border could cost £750 million and be introduced in 3 years. I accept its all opinion, but you base opinion on facts, and experience and history. And those all point to Brexit, especially a hard Brexit or no deal, bringing economic ruin. Don't worry. I have seen some very intemperate language and insults by the Remain fraternity. I am absolutely sure that you must be aware of it. Another Project Fear rerun. They just can't help themselves. As you say, all just opinion. However, you go on to assert that opinion is based on fact, experience and history and conclude that Brexit will bring economic ruin. There is an obvious flaw in the logic here. How come only opinion supporting your point of view is based on facts, experience and history, while contrary opinion is not? It's all just opinion after all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 53 minutes ago, woolley said: The EU has "broken" the Conservatives, and split opinion throughout the country for decades. It is poison for the unity of Britain. And you think that leaving the EU will somehow lance the boil? Talk about delusional. The EU hasn't "split opinion throughout the country for decades" or anything like. Thatcher has and no doubt will continue to do so. But the EU? Mais non! While economicall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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