ballaughbiker Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Quote How ridiculous... You know it isn't RIchard. Whatever you think about brexiters, extremists like that fella are thankfully few and far between. I really hope so. Whilst that is a real and nasty idiot at work, brexit seems to have given the green light to those who really don't like foreigners to say so. Whilst clearly not at the top of every brexiter's desires, the belief that immigration could be halted if the EU was left made many vote as they did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Why do so few people focus on the multiple failings of the EU and the principle of having law made by a supranational, hopelessly inefficient organisation that is run for the benefit of certain interest groups whilst reducing vast swathes of its citizens to penury? Such serious concerns have been passed by on the blind side throughout the existence of the bloc and increasingly so with the passing of each ever more intrusive treaty. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 (edited) Why do so many people want the country to take a considerable economic risk instead of sorting such problems out from within? Please don't say, as justification, that Cameron tried. It is now well known he hardly asked for anything that mattered. All our ills are not based on EU membership. In fact on analysis, very few are yet Farage et al preach that all will suddenly be fine on brexit. Now if you really believe that...... Edited June 17, 2018 by ballaughbiker all our etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 10 hours ago, woolley said: Why do so few people focus on the multiple failings of the EU and the principle of having law made by a supranational, hopelessly inefficient organisation that is run for the benefit of certain interest groups whilst reducing vast swathes of its citizens to penury? Such serious concerns have been passed by on the blind side throughout the existence of the bloc and increasingly so with the passing of each ever more intrusive treaty. Because a lot of folks know better...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Woolley, could you help us by pointing out which particular EU directives or principles it was that upset you? Was it the smoking ban? The diabetic driver ban? The 48 hour working week? The freedom of movement (within the constraints of local law)? Fishing quotas? Or, the measures to tackle climate change? In each case I think you would find that litigation, market forces, trade agreements and international treaty obligations pretty much decide the issue, and the only purpose to the laws is save time and money that all the separate courts and legislatures would otherwise spend reaching the same conclusions. I might agree with you when it comes to VAT regulations, and one or two other points I don’t like about the EU, but none of them come anywhere near close to persuading me that the disaster of Brexit would be worth it. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 5 hours ago, Freggyragh said: In each case I think you would find that litigation, market forces, trade agreements and international treaty obligations pretty much decide the issue etc ... ... or else it is legislation which is specifically about creating a common basis for trade within a Single Market. So that countries compete on a level playing field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 8 hours ago, Freggyragh said: Woolley, could you help us by pointing out which particular EU directives or principles it was that upset you? You need go no further, Freggy. The fact that there are EU directives is what upsets me. International agreements and regulations are a fact of life and totally fine, provided they are made by nations and not over their heads. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 The thing is, international agreements cause nations to enact regulations. That isn’t going to change even if Brexit ever happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 3 hours ago, woolley said: You need go no further, Freggy. The fact that there are EU directives is what upsets me. International agreements and regulations are a fact of life and totally fine, provided they are made by nations and not over their heads. So how do EU Directives have a democratic deficiency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 12 hours ago, Freggyragh said: The thing is, international agreements cause nations to enact regulations. That isn’t going to change even if Brexit ever happens. Of course. But that is in no way same as what happens within the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 9 hours ago, P.K. said: So how do EU Directives have a democratic deficiency? Work it out. There are 28 nations all with their own interests. The output can never suit everyone. Witness the CAP, the CFP, immigration policy and the euro as typical examples. I have no problem with a free trade area. It's not really even that though, is it? At the root of it, the issue is one of principle. I believe in the right and duty of the governments of sovereign states to make all of their own laws and treaties. You don't see a problem with delegating some of that to a foreign, supranational organisation, with ambitions to become a pan-continental superstate. I hear alarm bells ringing all over the place and think it will all end in tears, and perhaps blood. We have irreconcilable differences on the matter. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) Quote I have no problem with a free trade area. It's not really even that though, is it? A free trade area can only work effectively if there is common regulation. Regarding the other concerns, there is no policy for that and had we stayed in, our MEPs would have argued the case. That's what they do. Please stop this idea that we have no say whatsoever. You seem to have a project fear of your own : ) Edited June 18, 2018 by ballaughbiker punctuation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 3 hours ago, woolley said: Work it out. There are 28 nations all with their own interests. The output can never suit everyone. Witness the CAP, the CFP, immigration policy and the euro as typical examples. I have no problem with a free trade area. It's not really even that though, is it? At the root of it, the issue is one of principle. I believe in the right and duty of the governments of sovereign states to make all of their own laws and treaties. 27 minutes ago, ballaughbiker said: A free trade area can only work effectively if there is common regulation. Regarding the other concerns, there is no policy for that and had we stayed in, our MEPs would have argued the case. That's what they do. Please stop this idea that we have no say whatsoever. You seem to have a project fear of your own : ) Exactly. Woolley seems to have forgotten that throughout our time in the EU we have had MEP's allegedly fighting our corner and Westminster passing UK specific legislation. I see from that Fifth Column that is the BBC a financial consultancy has figured out that no free trade agreements mean extra red tape and that costs. Well, who would have thought it? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44511829 Brexit has positives though. If you're Dutch. Some insightful thinking has been going on as well. Like writing to all those involved that their status will be guaranteed. https://inews.co.uk/opinion/columnists/amsterdam-brexit-dividend/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 You cannot get past the hard fact that laws and regulations are being negotiated and imposed on you by an outside body. You do not need that in a free trade area, it's for the greater aggrandisement of the European Union. It's all about sovereignty. More than three quarters of EU legislation is passed by qualified majority voting so obviously you have the potential to be outvoted at every turn, no matter what our MEPs are allegedly doing. It is then waved through by Westminster without further meaningful scrutiny as the government and opposition both know that they cannot change it. Poor accountability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 28 minutes ago, woolley said: More than three quarters of EU legislation is passed by qualified majority voting How is this measured? By word, clause, statutory instrument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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