P.K. Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Freggyragh said: PK, you are arguing with people who think 6,000+ Airbus jobs leaving the U.K. is a good thing because the EU invested in it and because Airbus is partly owned by Germany, France, Spain, etc. I can accept (but not concur with) the argument that Airbus is leaving for some reason other than the uncertainty around Brexit, and I can accept (but consider absurd) the argument that the UK’s trading position will be better after Brexit and so the loss of all these jobs will be worth it in the long run. However, when I see the most severely brain-washed arguing that these job loses are good solely because the investment for them came from Europe then I’m afraid you are wasting your time discussing anything with them. They’d rather that there were no jobs in the U.K. than see Europeans investing here, and just buy planes from the US instead. I would like one of the large majority of brexiteers on here to explain how it is customs delays will not impact JIT operations and how trade tariffs will not impact the cost of doing business with the UK Organisations like Airbus, BMW and so forth are saying if there is not seamless trade then they will have to re-think their strategy. Of course they fucking well will. Just think "cost of doing business in the UK" which will then be compared to the rest of their manufacturing base. UK politicians then respond by saying that they are prepared to walk away from any negotiations and crash out on WTO terms. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. But then politicians, especially well-heeled tory politicians, don't care that much about what happens to the country. The likes of Gove, Johnson, Fox, Rees-Mogg, Redwood, Fallon, Leadsom etc etc etc are going to be just fine thank you very much indeedy no matter what the outcome. All the usual Brexit drivers like control of borders and thus immigration, sovereignty etc etc have been thoroughly debunked time and time again and yet they STILL bang on and on about it. I guess with such an uncertain future it's the only "positives" they can muster. One of the reasons I think we are in this tragic mess is that the UK has the most right-wing press in Europe. In better days the "British Free Press" would have shredded the lies peddled by the likes of Farage, Gove and Johnson. It didn't happen because the proprieters agenda is paramount and with Aunty Beeb hamstrung by their charter to provide "balanced" reporting they got away with it. Personally I think we should expect better from our elected representatives but that went out of the window with the appalling Thatcher creature. The government of the day have a duty of care to ALL of their citizens. This is essential to prevent a dictatorship by the majority. It seems to me we are ALL being driven over a cliff by the brexiteers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Freggyragh said: However, when I see the most severely brain-washed arguing that these job loses are good solely because the investment for them came from Europe then I’m afraid you are wasting your time discussing anything with them. They’d rather that there were no jobs in the U.K. than see Europeans investing here, and just buy planes from the US instead. They are winding you up because they know you are easily wound. Airbus is flying the EU kite exactly as it did when the UK balked at the single currency. Our exclusion was going to be a disaster then too, just as it was for BMW, Toyota et al. Good thing we didn't listen to them then too. Business will continue and flourish. Discuss the other aspects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 8 minutes ago, woolley said: Business will continue and flourish. Discuss the other aspects. On WTO rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 When did Airbus U.K. get involved in the UKs decision not to adopt the Euro? Is this something the Daily Express just told you, or did you dream it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 10 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: When did Airbus U.K. get involved in the UKs decision not to adopt the Euro? Is this something the Daily Express just told you, or did you dream it? Forget it or you'll just get bombarded with a load of childish petulant nonsense like I did. To avoid the issue would be my guess..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Freggyragh said: When did Airbus U.K. get involved in the UKs decision not to adopt the Euro? Is this something the Daily Express just told you, or did you dream it? No. They were all at it in the late 90s/early 00s, shouting from the sidelines just as they are now. Airbus made numerous interventions. The one linked below is one of the milder and later ones (2003) but it is not so easy to find links from earlier on just to assuage the gaps in your awareness. Airbus is an obvious EU animal and will always do Brussels' bidding. Common knowledge and all over the news at the time. Were you still at school then? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/super-jumbo-funding-in-doubt-as-blair-opens-350m-airbus-plant-94831.html "Mr Forgeard made a direct plea to the Prime Minister to take Britain into the euro saying: "Such an adjustment with the rest of Europe would certainly be beneficial for Airbus as a whole." He said that if the pound remained outside the single currency it would not affect future investment decisions but it would be an additional "co-efficient of risk" that Airbus would have to take into account." Edited June 25, 2018 by woolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 59 minutes ago, woolley said: He said that if the pound remained outside the single currency it would not affect future investment decisions but it would be an additional "co-efficient of risk" that Airbus would have to take into account." Makes a lot of sense. Fluctuations in the £ would affect the UK productivity costs. Is that really your best shot? Dear me. Piss poor effort. Must try harder. Why not trot out your threadbare "Trading Blocs do not need to create a Superstate!" nonsense? That one always raises a laugh...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 32 minutes ago, P.K. said: Makes a lot of sense. Fluctuations in the £ would affect the UK productivity costs. Is that really your best shot? Dear me. Piss poor effort. Must try harder. Why not trot out your threadbare "Trading Blocs do not need to create a Superstate!" nonsense? That one always raises a laugh...... He asked when Airbus got involved in the UK's decision not to get involved in the euro and made a stupid suggestion that I dreamt it or got it from the Daily Express. In reality they were regularly harping on about it and were still at it in 2003 as linked. Since you bring it up, trading blocs do not need to create a superstate. NAFTA doesn't have a single currency or a "North American Parliament" the last time I checked. It does not have NAFTA elections or NAFTA law. All are completely unnecessary, except of course where there is the ulterior motive of usurping sovereignty. They have been rumbled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, woolley said: No. They were all at it in the late 90s/early 00s, shouting from the sidelines just as they are now. Airbus made numerous interventions. The one linked below is one of the milder and later ones (2003) but it is not so easy to find links from earlier on just to assuage the gaps in your awareness. Certainly isn’t easier to find earlier links, especially from the 90s. Airbus didnt buy out BAE and form Airbus U.K. until 2001. The Broughton plant wasn’t opened until Summer 2003. No, I wasn’t in school then. One of my companies was involved in procurement from the Broughton factory. Yes, Airbus would have preferred the UK to have joined the Euro, but there wasn’t any hint of a threat to jobs or investment. In fact, as your link makes clear, Forgeard clearly ruled out the issue as a threat to either future investment or jobs security. When I was at school we had a thing called ‘reading comprehension’ - something you clearly missed out on. Your link is about a multi billion investment at a time when there was some uncertainty about the future currency arrangements. The current story is about a multi billion pound divestment because of the uncertainties of Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 7 hours ago, woolley said: Since you bring it up, trading blocs do not need to create a superstate. NAFTA doesn't have a single currency or a "North American Parliament" the last time I checked. It does not have NAFTA elections or NAFTA law. All are completely unnecessary, except of course where there is the ulterior motive of usurping sovereignty. They have been rumbled. "Usurping Sovereignty" indeed, what a load of nonsense. "Throughout our membership of the EU the British government still determined the vast majority of policy over every issue of greatest concern to British voters – including health, education, pensions, welfare, monetary policy, defence, border security and so forth. The "sovereignty" argument blithely ignores the fact that the British government continued to control more than 98 per cent of its public expenditure during our EU tenure." As to a "superstate" all 28 member states get to vote on policy issues. That's called democracy I believe. The leading tory bexiteers are so self-centered and duplicitous it wouldn't surprise me at all if the final proposals are so deliberately unacceptable to the other 27 that they get binned off and we crash out. Win /Win for Johnson, Gove, Fox, Ress-Mogg, Davis etc etc. A hard Brexit with the UK right-wing press, which is to say pretty much all of it, having Brussells to blame with a "told you so" slant. With no mention whatsoever of "Perfidious Albion" in action. What a sorry business it all is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 8 hours ago, Freggyragh said: Certainly isn’t easier to find earlier links, especially from the 90s. Airbus didnt buy out BAE and form Airbus U.K. until 2001. The Broughton plant wasn’t opened until Summer 2003. No, I wasn’t in school then. One of my companies was involved in procurement from the Broughton factory. Yes, Airbus would have preferred the UK to have joined the Euro, but there wasn’t any hint of a threat to jobs or investment. In fact, as your link makes clear, Forgeard clearly ruled out the issue as a threat to either future investment or jobs security. When I was at school we had a thing called ‘reading comprehension’ - something you clearly missed out on. Your link is about a multi billion investment at a time when there was some uncertainty about the future currency arrangements. The current story is about a multi billion pound divestment because of the uncertainties of Brexit. Broughton opened in 1939, producing Wellingtons and Lancaster’s. It’s been producing aircraft, or parts, ever since. only change in 2002/3 was new facilities for the larger wings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 The whole Brexit argument is based on repeating lies. Case in point; Woolley’s response to 6,500 jobs in danger. What actually happened: A company formed in 2001 put in massive investment in 2003 and made a comment at that time that the U.K. joining the Euro would be preferable but wouldn’t effect future investment decision. Woolley facts: Airbus frequently and loudly demanded the U.K. join the Euro years before the company even existed. In 2003 it was threatening to divest from the U.K. if the U.K. didn’t join the Euro, and here’s a link showing the exact opposite to prove it. I was being kind when I said you must have read it in the Express, or dreamt it. Having been involved, I knew It was a bare-faced lie. I am disappointed that it you’re claiming responsibility for it yourself, I was hoping you were a trusting fool, not a shameless liar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, John Wright said: Broughton opened in 1939, producing Wellingtons and Lancaster’s. It’s been producing aircraft, or parts, ever since. only change in 2002/3 was new facilities for the larger wings. Yes, but Airbus U.K. didn’t take over until 2001 and the wing factory for the A380 didn’t start operation until 2003. It has expanded significantly even since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 26 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: Yes, but Airbus U.K. didn’t take over until 2001 and the wing factory for the A380 didn’t start operation until 2003. It has expanded significantly even since then. You said “opened”. That’s a woody woody fact. Bit of truth and a contrary implication or conclusion to the truth. Airbus UK wasn’t a takeover, just a hiving off from BAC of the Airbus related manufacturing, just a rename at that stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 15 hours ago, P.K. said: On WTO rules? the same wto the eu uses...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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