So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[John Wright]

6 hours ago, Freggyragh said:I was clearly talking about the A380 wing factory. 

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2003/07/uk-s-biggest-new-factory-opens-at-airbus-broughton.html

It is in Broughton, as was the old Lancaster bomber factory. It is not the same factory.

Another factory was opened in 2011:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/new-400m-airbus-factory-secure-1805252.amp

Woolley was talking specifically about Airbus, and the Airbus management. Not BAC. Did BAC triy to interfere in the Pound / Euro debate? If not, then how is it relevant? If you are saying that BAC, BAE, or Marconi, or any other components of what became Airbus U.K. were lobbying through the 90s for the Euro then I’d like to see a link. 

No, you weren’t, you said “The Broughton plant wasn’t opened until Summer 2003” no mention of the 380 wing factory. As I said it’s exactly what woody2 does with “facts”

[Freggyragh]

3 hours ago, John Wright said:

No, you weren’t, you said “The Broughton plant wasn’t opened until Summer 2003” no mention of the 380 wing factory. As I said it’s exactly what woody2 does with “facts”

No. When BAE operated Broughton their allegiance was to Farnborough, not Toulouse, and I don’t recall them saying one word about the Euro. I don’t recall Airbus producing anything much at Broughton between acquiring the business in 2001 and the opening of the new factory in 2003, as I recall, they outsourced work to China until the new factory was ready. Since then they have doubled the permanent workforce and set up a huge chain of supply with U.K. subcontractors. I was attacking Woolley’s ludicrous claim that they were constantly threatening divestment over the Euro for years before they even existed, even before they’d got the factories where the 6,000+ staff now work up and running. 

[manxman1980]

Big businesses always get involved in politics.  British Steel was recently lobbying the Government to soften their stance with Russia. 

Why?

Because British Steel imports coal, coke and iron ore from Russia and they did not want Russia to cut that supply.

Recently I had a meeting with a representative of the Department for International Trade who offered to broker introductions to key Government policy makers and the PM so that we could also lobby Government on issues that affected our business.

Undoubtedly then Airbus and other businesses will be doing the same over Brexit and will have done so in the past on other matters important to them.

Regardless of that though job losses post brexit are not going to be a good thing.  I am surprised that some see to believe that having a higher unemployment rate will somehow benefit the UK.  

[John Wright]

7 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

No. When BAE operated Broughton their allegiance was to Farnborough, not Toulouse, and I don’t recall them saying one word about the Euro. I don’t recall Airbus producing anything much at Broughton between acquiring the business in 2001 and the opening of the new factory in 2003, as I recall, they outsourced work to China until the new factory was ready. Since then they have doubled the permanent workforce and set up a huge chain of supply with U.K. subcontractors. I was attacking Woolley’s ludicrous claim that they were constantly threatening divestment over the Euro for years before they even existed, even before they’d got the factories where the 6,000+ staff now work up and running. 

But the wings for all airbus planes have always been built at Broughton, designed at Hatfield, later Filton, by Hawker Siddley De Havilland division. That’s back to the late 1970’s.

[woody2]

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Regardless of that though job losses post brexit are not going to be a good thing.  I am surprised that some see to believe that having a higher unemployment rate will somehow benefit the UK.  

but this isn't about leaving the eu, if it was the jobs would be going to another eu member but they aren't.....

the remoans need to make there mind up one minute the uk needs mass uncontrolled unskilled immigration the next they worry about uk jobs- can't have it both ways......

the remoans claim a shortage of skilled labour, so even if this lot lose jobs they will pick up others due to this apparent shortage.....

[manxman1980]

10 minutes ago, woody2 said:

but this isn't about leaving the eu, if it was the jobs would be going to another eu member but they aren't.....

the remoans need to make there mind up one minute the uk needs mass uncontrolled unskilled immigration the next they worry about uk jobs- can't have it both ways......

the remoans claim a shortage of skilled labour, so even if this lot lose jobs they will pick up others due to this apparent shortage.....

You are over simplifying.  If the personnel at Airbus lost their jobs (whether or not they transfer to another EU country or not) those people do not necessarily have the relevant skills to transfer into other industries that are facing a skills shortage.  Sure, some of them will find other jobs in similar industries but not all will.

There is then the knock on effect on the supply chain that support Airbus operations in the UK and the impact on local business who benefit indirectly from Airbus being present in the UK.  

I am not saying that remaining in the EU would solve this just simply that this is much more complicated than has been discussed so far.

[woody2]

6 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

You are over simplifying.  If the personnel at Airbus lost their jobs (whether or not they transfer to another EU country or not) those people do not necessarily have the relevant skills to transfer into other industries that are facing a skills shortage.  Sure, some of them will find other jobs in similar industries but not all will.

There is then the knock on effect on the supply chain that support Airbus operations in the UK and the impact on local business who benefit indirectly from Airbus being present in the UK.  

I am not saying that remaining in the EU would solve this just simply that this is much more complicated than has been discussed so far.

but this isn't a exit issue.....

[manxman1980]

41 minutes ago, woody2 said:

but this isn't a exit issue.....

I never said it was a result of brexit.  I said that job losses post brexit where not going to be a good thing

4 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Regardless of that though job losses post brexit are not going to be a good thing.  I am surprised that some see to believe that having a higher unemployment rate will somehow benefit the UK.  

To further clarify, job losses are rarely a good thing.  Post brexit job losses could be really bad news though whether or not the companies involved move their operations to the EU or elsewhere.  

The key point of my post, however, was to say that businesses will always lobby government on issues which are important to them.  They do so to protect their own interests and not that of their employees.  No doubt Airbus would like to see the UK Government offer incentives to keep production in the UK (similar to what was done for the North East car industry).

Edited June 27, 2018 by manxman1980

[woody2]

14 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

I never said it was a result of brexit.  I said that job losses post brexit where not going to be a good thing

To further clarify, job losses are rarely a good thing.  Post brexit job losses could be really bad news though whether or not the companies involved move their operations to the EU or elsewhere.  

The key point of my post, however, was to say that businesses will always lobby government on issues which are important to them.  They do so to protect their own interests and not that of their employees.  No doubt Airbus would like to see the UK Government offer incentives to keep production in the UK (similar to what was done for the North East car industry).

which are......

[P.K.]

18 hours ago, woolley said:

I am not reluctant to discuss sovereignty. You never have anything new to say on it and we've done it to death anyway. How does NAFTA manage without the baggage of state as I asked in the first place and why cannot the EU do the same, as a straightforward a free trade area with no hidden agenda?

 

Surprise surprise seems like NAFTA isn't as simple as you make out. No doubt there are lots of other issues if you could be bothered to look:

To Save NAFTA, Kill Its Controversial Dispute Settlement Provisions

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danikenson/2017/10/24/to-save-nafta-kill-its-controversial-dispute-settlement-provisions/#2e579a7a3168

Maybe the EU is the better organisation....

 

18 hours ago, woolley said:

The difference between us is that you are happy to live under an arrangement where, treaty by treaty, nation states are being gradually subordinated by stealth to eventually become nothing more than regions of Europe. I believe in nations having full sovereignty and fulfilling their own destiny. Not just the UK incidentally, but all of the nations of Europe.

 

I'm not that happy with the EU. As I have posted time after time after time in my opinion it is going to have to reform itself. However what do you get with full sovereignty out of the EU that's so very much more advantageous than what we have now. Express it in £ s d gains please. Show ALL working.

"Subordinated by stealth" indeed. Tommyrot. What, The Daily Wail et al have suddenly decided not report on the EU? Don't think so.....

 

18 hours ago, woolley said:

As for "presiding over poverty", have a care for the damage being caused and lives wrecked by the strictures of the single currency in Southern Europe. Obviously this counts for nothing to you.

 

Your presumption "Obviously this counts for nothing to you" you must know is complete bollocks. As you and your ilk love to point out, naturally with as much scorn and derision that you can muster, I'm a Grauniad reader.

That aside post up links to the destructive sway of the Euro. I'm interested.

Incidentally the reason I used inverted commas is simply because unlike brexiteers I don't view my EU friends as foreigners.

[manxman1980]

3 hours ago, woody2 said:

which are......

A gentleman's agreement to "do whatever it took to keep Nissan happy" according to a Whitehall source albeit with a caveat that it was not a "blank cheque".  Following this Nissan announced it would invest in the Sunderland plant and build two models there.  

I am sure that Airbus would like a similar agreement and have no doubt that many other companies would also like such an agreement.  They will undoubtedly say, "we want x or we pull out of the UK because of brexit" regardless of whether Brexit is the real cause or not.

[woolley]

@ PK.

NAFTA: it's all about trade. That's it.

EU: too late for reform. It had its chance, now it's had its day.

Euro: If you can't tell by now that the euro is a disaster for Southern Europe then nothing I post is going to help you.

Foreigners: are, er, foreigners. Doesn't mean you cannot have foreign friends but they don't need inverted commas. If you don't see Europeans as foreigners it proves you believe in the United States of Europe.

[pongo]

2 hours ago, woolley said:

Euro: If you can't tell by now that the euro is a disaster for Southern Europe then nothing I post is going to help you.

It's really no different from more deprived parts of the UK having the same currency and interest rates as London. Or wealthy people having the same currency as less wealthy people.

We can wait and see whether the Euro  is politically sustainable. Its monetary and fiscal discipline is exactly what all countries need. And southern Europe especially has an historical tendency to otherwise revert to simplistic economic  populism. Look at the new coalition in Italy which promises increased spending funded by lower taxes. Only achievable if they were to quit the Euro and reflate. But, quite rightly, nobody would lend to a simplistically populist govt. And Italians do not want that. Who would want their land and assets priced in Lira?

ETA: but it isn't working - and there is no obvious solution apart from sticking with austerity, collecting taxes, better documenting  transactions, reducing cash transactions etc. Greece is making progress. Regularly changing the notes makes sense too.

Edited June 27, 2018 by pongo

[P.K.]

@ The Woolster

"NAFTA: it's all about trade. That's it."

Ducking and diving as usual.

Well it would appear that your most quoted, your most vaulted, your paragon of a Free Trade Agreement, NAFTA, is a dead man walking. One of the members, the US of A, has slapped trade tariffs on the other two members. Naturally they are retaliating. Partners in a Free Trade Agreement slapping on trade tariffs. Jolly amusing to an EU member as I'm sure you'll agree!

If only they had set it up properly. With an umbrella organisation, lets call it the NACJ, with the powers to keep the participants on a level playing field. Too late now....

"EU: too late for reform. It had its chance, now it's had its day."

Ducking and diving as usual.

Never too late to change. Which it will have to.

UK: too late for reform. It had it's chance, now it's had its day....

"Euro: If you can't tell by now that the euro is a disaster for Southern Europe then nothing I post is going to help you."

Ducking and diving as usual.

Sure the PIGS are in the shit (sorry, couldn't resist).

But the blame lies, especially with Italy and Greece, with the ineptitude of their own governments.

If only there was an umbrella organisation that could dictate to nation states the best way forward in a Free Trade Area then maybe they would have taken a different path. But in Europe the sovereignty of nation states remains paramount. So their woes are self-inflicted.

"Foreigners: are, er, foreigners. Doesn't mean you cannot have foreign friends but they don't need inverted commas. If you don't see Europeans as foreigners it proves you believe in the United States of Europe."

Ducking and diving as usual.

There's no such thing as a "United States of Europe." It doesn't exist. It's like parents inventing a Bogeyman to scare their children into doing what they're told. Especially at bedtime because they need their sleep.

@ The Woolster:

So let's have your response to this:

"I'm not that happy with the EU. As I have posted time after time after time in my opinion it is going to have to reform itself. However what do you get with full sovereignty out of the EU that's so very much more advantageous than what we have now. Express it in £ s d gains please. Show ALL working."

No ducking and diving, you've done enough of that recently, because I really want to see what "full sovereignty" buys the UK in £ s d terms.

Thanks.

 

[woody2]

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

A gentleman's agreement to "do whatever it took to keep Nissan happy" according to a Whitehall source albeit with a caveat that it was not a "blank cheque".  Following this Nissan announced it would invest in the Sunderland plant and build two models there.  

I am sure that Airbus would like a similar agreement and have no doubt that many other companies would also like such an agreement.  They will undoubtedly say, "we want x or we pull out of the UK because of brexit" regardless of whether Brexit is the real cause or not.

so no agreement.....

#fakenews