So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[woolley]

15 minutes ago, pongo said:

It's really no different from more deprived parts of the UK having the same currency and interest rates as London. Or wealthy people having the same currency as less wealthy people.

We can wait and see whether the Euro  is politically sustainable. Its monetary and fiscal discipline is exactly what all countries need. And southern Europe especially has an historical tendency to otherwise revert to simplistic economic  populism. Look at the new coalition in Italy which promises increased spending funded by lower taxes. Only achievable if they were to quit the Euro and reflate. But, quite rightly, nobody would lend to a simplistically populist govt. And Italians do not want that. Who would want their land and assets priced in Lira?

But the UK is a nation state. As PK rightly informs us, the USE is not and therefore it does not need to have monetary union.

As for your second paragraph, you might as easily substitute "EU" for "euro". Discipline may well be what countries need, but in reality they don't like being told this from outside even if they have been living high on the hog for decades by virtue of largesse from outside. Ultimately, as you say, they will have to quit (or be expelled from) the euro and reflate. Whether the Italians, or some of them, want that is neither here nor there. Unless the EU is prepared to go on eternally pouring billions of EU taxpayers money in it will have to happen at some point. It's a political decision, but then it always has been.

[woody2]

remoans keep going on about eu reform.....

2 years since the vote what have they changed.....

[pongo]

7 minutes ago, woolley said:

Ultimately, as you say, they will have to quit (or be expelled from) the euro and reflate. Whether the Italians, or some of them, want that is neither here nor there. Unless the EU is prepared to go on eternally pouring billions of EU taxpayers money in it will have to happen at some point. It's a political decision, but then it always has been.

A country cannot reflate unless it can find lenders. And a populist government could never find lenders at a sustainable price.

Also - it's not really taxpayers money. Money is a government instrument (is shared). Created by spending and destroyed by taxation. People might instead deal in gold or land. But they still have to pay their taxes in the govt currency.

It's really a choice between austerity and good sense Vs populism. If you want food and medicine then you need hard currency.

[woolley]

6 minutes ago, pongo said:

 

It's really a choice between austerity and good sense Vs populism. If you want food and medicine then you need hard currency.

All very sound. But when you have people marching on your palace and threatening to set fire to your bottom, it isn't always easy or advisable to prescribe a further dose of austerity and good sense. As you say, money is a government instrument and some times it has to play a populist tune.

[Freggyragh]

10 hours ago, John Wright said:

But the wings for all airbus planes have always been built at Broughton, designed at Hatfield, later Filton, by Hawker Siddley De Havilland division. That’s back to the late 1970’s.

Come along now John, you know you’re just being silly. We are talking about Woolley’s claim that Airbus threatened to make people redundant if the U.K. didn’t adopt the Euro. Yes, prior to 2001 there were wings made for Airbus by BAE, a British company, in an old factory on the Hawarden Airport site. Getting back to Airbus, it is a pan-European company, it took over Hawarden Airport site and started constructing its own wing factories from 2001, so Woolley’s claims are clearly ludicrous, and you saying ‘but there was another company making wings in Broughton before Airbus opened their factory’ is a just a bit on the spectrum. 

[doc.fixit]

...naïve question- what's the difference between populism and democracy?........

[woody2]

37 minutes ago, pongo said:

A country cannot reflate unless it can find lenders. And a populist government could never find lenders at a sustainable price.

Also - it's not really taxpayers money. Money is a government instrument (is shared). Created by spending and destroyed by taxation. People might instead deal in gold or land. But they still have to pay their taxes in the govt currency.

It's really a choice between austerity and good sense Vs populism. If you want food and medicine then you need hard currency.

when greece nearly went under it was stated the only thing they needed was a printer?

[woody2]

when they said germany had lost on the news i was hoping it was merkel......

 

[Freggyragh]

3 hours ago, P.K. said:

That aside post up links to the destructive sway of the Euro. I'm interested.

I think I can help there PK. I’m sure one or two on here just hate the Euro because it’s forrin, but I think the real problem is that although the  Euro is controlled by a central bank, it lends to the different governments of the Eurozone at different rates. The very high costs of borrowing for Greece cannot be mitigated by manipulating the value of the Euro because that would upset  Northern Europe. It’s different in the US - borrowing costs the same there whether you are in a basket case red state like Kentucky, or a wealthy blue state like Vermont. 

[P.K.]

25 minutes ago, doc.fixit said:

...naïve question- what's the difference between populism and democracy?........

I once coined a description of the type of voter who was ripe for targeting by a populist agenda.....

I guess populism means understanding the groundswell of opinion, whether it has any basis in fact or not, and pandering to it to achieve your democratic objective of garnering the majority of the votes and attaining power.

[P.K.]

8 minutes ago, Freggyragh said:

I think I can help there PK. I’m sure one or two on here just hate the Euro because it’s forrin, but I think the real problem is that although the  Euro is controlled by a central bank, it lends to the different governments of the Eurozone at different rates. The very high costs of borrowing for Greece cannot be mitigated by manipulating the value of the Euro because that would upset  Northern Europe. It’s different in the US - borrowing costs the same there whether you are in a basket case red state like Kentucky, or a wealthy blue state like Vermont. 

Yes I understand that but the almost pathological hatred of the EU seen on here doesn't say anything good about those posting their venom.

Time and again the immigration and sovereignty brexit drivers are completely debunked and yet they blindly (and increasingly boringly) press on as if nothing has been said.

It's worrying when you think these posters are a cross-section of the public at large.

Still, they're getting their way and we're leaving.

I just hope they remember to apologise....

[Freggyragh]

We’ll see. 

[woolley]

41 minutes ago, Freggyragh said:

Come along now John, you know you’re just being silly. We are talking about Woolley’s claim that Airbus threatened to make people redundant if the U.K. didn’t adopt the Euro. Yes, prior to 2001 there were wings made for Airbus by BAE, a British company, in an old factory on the Hawarden Airport site. Getting back to Airbus, it is a pan-European company, it took over Hawarden Airport site and started constructing its own wing factories from 2001, so Woolley’s claims are clearly ludicrous, and you saying ‘but there was another company making wings in Broughton before Airbus opened their factory’ is a just a bit on the spectrum. 

You are just arguing a technicality day after day. I linked to the factory opening when Forgeard lobbied Blair publicly to take the UK into the euro with a veiled threat about future decisions. If he was doing that publicly it is not unreasonable to opine that more pressure was also applied privately. I hold my hands up that I wasn't aware of the precise timeline for the set up of the UK Airbus company in 2001 and I defer to your personal experience of that, but given the established sentiment of the company as in the link, it is more than likely that Airbus on the continent and the antecedents of the company in the UK would have taken the same line from an earlier date.

[woolley]

12 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Still, they're getting their way and we're leaving.

I just hope they remember to apologise....

Of course! For extracting you from the abyss.

[woody2]

the euro is designed to fail but it might just survive a few weeks longer than the eu......