woolley Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, P.K. said: Define 'properly' please. Thanks. Hmmm "ever closer union" leads to what exactly? It seems to me the EU still has growing pains and as I've said many times will have to reform itself. Unfortunately without the wise counsel from folks like Farage. How they must miss him..... Without periodic bailouts to save them from collapse as long as the political will endures to keep things on track and make all seem well in the single market. You're welcome. I'd very much like to know. There are EU enthusiasts who would like it to lead to a state. Witness the flag, the courts, the currency, the anthem, and lately, the proposed defence force. I think you are mistaking growing pains for metastasis. I hear that Farage is still there isn't he? How do you see the EU reforming itself? I'm interested in what you believe it should be. Edited July 10, 2018 by woolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 minute ago, La Colombe said: As I understand it, WTO rules wouldn't allow the current NHS/BBC models. So they'll be privatised as the only choice, the choice the country can then be blamed for making by voting out of the EU. not true..... but the eu rule change in 2023 would..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, La Colombe said: As I understand it, WTO rules wouldn't allow the current NHS/BBC models. So they'll be privatised as the only choice, the choice the country can then be blamed for making by voting out of the EU. Sounds like another scare story that somebody is flying. Such things will be reserved to the jurisdiction of the individual state in negotiation. That isn't to say that both of those organisations wouldn't benefit from reform and some bright lights shone into dark corners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 19 minutes ago, La Colombe said: As I understand it, WTO rules wouldn't allow the current NHS/BBC models. So they'll be privatised as the only choice, the choice the country can then be blamed for making by voting out of the EU. Even if that were the case it would be no bad thing. The NHS has turned into a self serving monster and there are a number of much less costly much more efficient and much better in some other countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD4ELI Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 29 minutes ago, Rog said: Even if that were the case it would be no bad thing. The NHS has turned into a self serving monster and there are a number of much less costly much more efficient and much better in some other countries. Name one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 49 minutes ago, GD4ELI said: Name one. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Israel Technology and research second to none... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, woolley said: Without periodic bailouts to save them from collapse as long as the political will endures to keep things on track and make all seem well in the single market. You're welcome. I'd very much like to know. There are EU enthusiasts who would like it to lead to a state. Witness the flag, the courts, the currency, the anthem, and lately, the proposed defence force. I think you are mistaking growing pains for metastasis. I hear that Farage is still there isn't he? How do you see the EU reforming itself? I'm interested in what you believe it should be. That applies to Greece but aren't Spain and Portugal 'Euro Neutral' I think I saw somewhere? Pay in and pay out pretty much equal. I have NEVER come across anyone who wants it as a state. As to a defence force that's now forward thinking because of Trump sounding off! However would I go into combat with the Italians covering my six? Errrr no...... NATO as is suits me just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 18 minutes ago, quilp said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Israel Technology and research second to none... With about 12% of our population and lots of US aid it's hardly comparable. US jews used to get tax relief on their donations to Israel. Not sure if they still do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Comparable in the sense that it appears to work well, is efficient and financially sustainable. It was the sixth leading service in the world in 2016, not bad for a comparatively small, nation state. Edited July 10, 2018 by quilp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Colombe Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Whether the alternatives are better or not is not the point. The point is that the country would never vote for the NHS to be privatised. Or the BBC. They are sacred cows. Hence a crash out Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, La Colombe said: Whether the alternatives are better or not is not the point. The point is that the country would never vote for the NHS to be privatised. Or the BBC. They are sacred cows. Hence a crash out Brexit. They are indeed sacred cows. They will remain sacred cows Brexit or no Brexit. But if you really believe that's what drives people who believe in Brexit, that is astounding. It is actually about the dilution of the sovereignty of nation states, erosion of self-determination by osmosis and the dressing up of the process as a mere trading bloc. This is why I asked PK what is his blueprint for the EU seeing as he asserts that it needs reforming. Reforming to what? A trading bloc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 20 minutes ago, La Colombe said: Whether the alternatives are better or not is not the point. The point is that the country would never vote for the NHS to be privatised. Or the BBC. They are sacred cows. Hence a crash out Brexit. who said they would ever get a vote..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 37 minutes ago, quilp said: Comparable in the sense that it appears to work well, is efficient and financially sustainable. It was the sixth leading service in the world in 2016, not bad for a comparatively small, nation state. Comparable? Median age in Israel is 30. UK as third as much again with 40. Over 65 in Israel 10% or 850k. Over 65 in the UK nearly twice as many at 19% or 13 million coffin dodgers who take a lot of resources to look after. Israel is a comparatively young (healthy) country compared to the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 16 minutes ago, woolley said: They are indeed sacred cows. They will remain sacred cows Brexit or no Brexit. But if you really believe that's what drives people who believe in Brexit, that is astounding. It is actually about the dilution of the sovereignty of nation states, erosion of self-determination by osmosis and the dressing up of the process as a mere trading bloc. This is why I asked PK what is his blueprint for the EU seeing as he asserts that it needs reforming. Reforming to what? A trading bloc? Sorry, unlike some I don't have several hours to spare on a treatise most folks won't bother reading. And it's not a blueprint as I think mostly the EU is ok. Just tinkering around the edges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, P.K. said: Comparable? Median age in Israel is 30. UK as third as much again with 40. Over 65 in Israel 10% or 850k. Over 65 in the UK nearly twice as many at 19% or 13 million coffin dodgers who take a lot of resources to look after. Israel is a comparatively young (healthy) country compared to the UK. The age breakdown is irrelevant in this case. It's the way its universal (for all) healthcare model is organised. Working Israelis pay a yearly health tax of around 4-5%. This is separate to the other couple of schemes to which they contribute. The Yanks don't contribute monies directly to Israeli healthcare by the way. Israel receives a yearly defence credit from the US, around $4 billion +/-dollars, which could be construed as freeing up monies which contribute to their health system but at the same time the US also restricts Israel from selling their warfare tech to many other countries, including China, which could be considered adversarial to US interests around the globe. So they give conditionally with one hand and restrict Israel's potential in the global arms market with the other. Off topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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