Freggyragh Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, woody2 said: so who is going to vote for this "may deal" not most of labour,snp, libdums or 70+ tories..... jrm said he support may but not this plan no deal is looking more likely..... Is this a Woodyprediction? Edited July 10, 2018 by Freggyragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 9 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: but no vote and no veto. same as the eu change... no more vetos.... no need for every member to agree.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Freggyragh said: Is this a Woodyprediction? nope- labour/ snp/ libdums have already said they won't support...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: This soft exit of course means same as you were, but no vote and no veto. I'm for a soft Brexit. And I have been saying from the start that's what will happen. That's still seems the inevitable outcome for the moment. The issue is the process. We're intrinsically interlinked. Any separation can only happen over a much longer period and it is more likely that all countries will gradually move towards shared systems of standards and practices. But the Chequers plan is full of holes. It's a mess. Mr Barnier says that the deal is 80% done. That can only mean that the outstanding 20% means shifting the deal further away from pedantic all or nothing sovereign position. Woody and Co believe that if the deal is rejected by Parliament then we get a no-deal Brexit. Starmer and the media I think believe that if Parliament rejects the deal then Brexit is on hold. It's not certain either way. The thing is a mess. Woody believes that it's for the EU to impose a hard border in Ireland if there is a no deal Brexit. Everyone else apart from Mogg basically agrees that it would be WTO rules which would require a hard border. The truth is that the whole thing is up in the air. Davis resigned on principle. Boris resigned on a matter of ambition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 14 minutes ago, woody2 said: incorrect- the 2% of gdp agreement should spent on defence from that a percentage goes to nato to fund it..... underspend on defence equals less dosh for nato..... #freeloaders Another Woodyfact. Common funding to cover NATO’s own costs (military and civil) are calculated as a percentage of gdp and are payable regardless of whether an individual country’s defence spending commitments are met. So underspend on defence does not effect the amount of dosh that goes direct to NATO. Not in the slightest. Ya spud-cock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 21 minutes ago, woody2 said: incorrect- the 2% of gdp agreement should spent on defence from that a percentage goes to nato to fund it..... underspend on defence equals less dosh for nato..... #freeloaders Basic comprehension old boy. Comparatively most countries pay basically nothing to NATO for common funding. NATO's direct funding budget for 2018 is I believe capped at about €2.2bn. The UK defence budget is I think £47.2. i.e. roughly 20 times the who NATO budget. The USA's is $619bn. The USA pay just over 22% of the common funding which is about $0.5bn. That is comparatively nothing against $600bn If anything the USA get off lightly as in the cost sharing arrangements they only pay 22% compared to the UK & France's 10%, Germany 14% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 20 minutes ago, woody2 said: nope- labour/ snp/ libdums have already said they won't support...... I actually agree with you. But you are presuming that will lead to no deal as they want a "harder" Brexit. The Libdems, SNP, half of labour won't support cos they want a softer Brexit. The current proposals do not work, I think that is accepted, but in my view after the change at the top of the Tory party this week subsequent changes will lead to an even softer Brexit. You can see how bad things are looking for Brexit. Farage is threatening to become leader of UKIP again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Lost Login said: Farage is threatening to become leader of UKIP again! It would give him something to do. And it's potentially a nice earner for him. But splitting the potential Conservative vote favours Corbyn's Labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 2 hours ago, P.K. said: With a bolder, aggressive and resurgent Russia NATO has deployed to the Baltic States. No NATO and Russia will be annexing more than the Crimea peninsula. Nah. It's fine. EU and 70 years of peace in Europe and all of that. If Russia marches into the Baltics, Brussels will just go in and chuck 'em out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Freggyragh said: So, you’re saying that the President of European Council wasn’t elected (presumably by the European Council), and that he isn’t a politician? I’m not going to check because I know it’s just like your ‘EU export tariffs’, or U.K. WTO schedules - in other words, complete horseshit. Looks like you did check. He's elected a bit like an MLC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Freggyragh said: Surely there’s someone from the leave side with something to bring to the table other than blind hatred or made-up Woodyfacts. It's already all been said. I anticipated this situation weeks ago, and earlier in the year: So against this tumultuous domestic political backdrop, where does this leave Brexit? I did post a little while ago that it might be a pragmatic plan to accept a semi-detached status from the European Union in the interim so that at least we don’t allow the backsliders on the Remain side to derail Brexit altogether. I think that this is a real danger that the Brexiteers in Parliament would do well to heed. In other words, it might be a case of Brexit Theresa May style, or no Brexit at all in the near future. After coming so close to shaking loose from Brussels, that would be a tragedy of epic proportions. Perhaps it would be wise to put as much distance between Britain and the EU as we can now and consolidate later if necessary. So much can still go wrong. Such a pity when we could have been out of the uncertainty, away and building the new reality by now had Article 50 been triggered by Cameron immediately. So I would be for going with May and at least getting ourselves out legally and the we can build from there. Softly, softly, catchee monkey. I can understand the frustrations of those who want a total break and want it now, but if they risk bringing down the government, they risk losing Brexit altogether and the country being back where it started; stuck as a full member in a disintegrating bloc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 31 minutes ago, woolley said: Looks like you did check. He's elected a bit like an MLC. Nope, if Woody says so, that’s enough for me. You might like to confirm to Woody that the ‘President of the European Council’ is not only elected, but he is also a politician. (I guess Woody thinks because Tusk is Polish he must be a plumber). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 2 hours ago, pongo said: I'm for a soft Brexit. And I have been saying from the start that's what will happen. That's still seems the inevitable outcome for the moment. The issue is the process. We're intrinsically interlinked. Any separation can only happen over a much longer period and it is more likely that all countries will gradually move towards shared systems of standards and practices. But the Chequers plan is full of holes. It's a mess. Mr Barnier says that the deal is 80% done. That can only mean that the outstanding 20% means shifting the deal further away from pedantic all or nothing sovereign position. Woody and Co believe that if the deal is rejected by Parliament then we get a no-deal Brexit. Starmer and the media I think believe that if Parliament rejects the deal then Brexit is on hold. It's not certain either way. The thing is a mess. Woody believes that it's for the EU to impose a hard border in Ireland if there is a no deal Brexit. Everyone else apart from Mogg basically agrees that it would be WTO rules which would require a hard border. The truth is that the whole thing is up in the air. Davis resigned on principle. Boris resigned on a matter of ambition. I think you are right to a point, and spot on about Davis and Johnson. Boris is, as ever, only concerned about Boris. I don't think the May version is worthless though, as the more fundamentalist on the Leave side do. I think it's pretty much a done deal behind the scenes, and I think enough parliamentarians can be persuaded to back it either because they believe in it, or because they think it's making the best of a bad job with no alternative, or because it will give them a quiet life with their constituents and possible re-election. I reckon that would cover the large centre ground on both sides of the argument and this is the constituency May has aimed for. She will not have been the least bit surprised about the resignations and would have been prepared for them. Previously she couldn't unite a cabinet around her proposals. Now she can. I think the most strident Brexiteers would do well to pipe down. I've said before that the May Brexit could be the only one we can get for now, and I suggest that the legal status of being outside will be precious in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 29 minutes ago, woolley said: It's already all been said ... Stating the obvious. Brexit has been pushed by charlatans prepared to say and anything to get their way, and a lot of fools who would believe anything. You’re assuming that their are plenty of level-headed and pragmatic mps waiting in the side-lines to orchestrate a slow and measured Brexit that diverges with Europe over many years - the sort of glacial speed and steady as she goes Brexit that we could all assess as we go, and put into reverse if necessary. I doubt the like exist. Your U.K. mps aren’t interested your well being, they’re interested in their own, and they have to make their mark before the next election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: Stating the obvious. Brexit has been pushed by charlatans prepared to say and anything to get their way, and a lot of fools who would believe anything. You’re assuming that their are plenty of level-headed and pragmatic mps waiting in the side-lines to orchestrate a slow and measured Brexit that diverges with Europe over many years - the sort of glacial speed and steady as she goes Brexit that we could all assess as we go, and put into reverse if necessary. I doubt the like exist. Your U.K. mps aren’t interested your well being, they’re interested in their own, and they have to make their mark before the next election. There are extremely principled people who support Brexit, not just the likes of Boris. I'm not about to rehearse all the reasons yet again, but let us see what happens. I do actually think that "pragmatic, slow and measured" is the plan and that is what we are about to get. Of course, as is the human experience in general, it could yet go pear-shaped, and the government could fall, but I believe enough will be content (relieved?) to embrace it and move on, and it will turn out to be an agreeable place to be and to develop future policy from. Of course, I believe that the last thing the UK will ever want to do is to put the process into reverse, but so long as those who want it have that comfort blanket for the present, and it brings them on board to achieve Brexit, it's a price worth paying and the careerist MPs you speak of can sell it to both sides of the electorate. I think May and her team deserve some credit for this. I might be 100% anti-EU, but I understand that it was a 52/48 split on a major issue. We have to recognise that and come up with a formula around which we can start to rebuild some national unity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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