Max Power Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, woolley said: No it wasn't. Have you heard of the multi-speed Europe? We got an opt out like we did for the euro. Doesn't mean that there is no aspiration to complete these projects in the future. As I've said before, the EU probes and pushes against the defences of the nation state, taking what it can and then strategically pausing or withdrawing before returning for more. If they didn't do this the objections of one state could derail the whole show and provoke the detractors elsewhere. This way they can move things along and pick off the laggards at a more auspicious moment. Do you really think that Brussels would not want everyone in Schengen and the euro? When they have reduced nations to mere regions of the EU, they will have the power to do it. It will take a long time but they have much patience. And things were due to take giant steps forward in the next decade. Britain would have been in the Euro, there would be economic and fiscal union, be part of a European combined armed forces arrangement, more decisions would be taken centrally etc..... https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/white_paper_on_the_future_of_europe_en.pdf Option five is the obvious aim of the EU, creating a sort of United States of Europe or Soviet Union of Europe, depending on your viewpoint. That is what we would get if we stayed within the EU, some obviously want that or don't understand the implications, others want out and don't understand the implications of that! Edited December 22, 2018 by Max Power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 39 minutes ago, woolley said: No it wasn't. Have you heard of the multi-speed Europe? We got an opt out like we did for the euro. Doesn't mean that there is no aspiration to complete these projects in the future. As I've said before, the EU probes and pushes against the defences of the nation state, taking what it can and then strategically pausing or withdrawing before returning for more. If they didn't do this the objections of one state could derail the whole show and provoke the detractors elsewhere. This way they can move things along and pick off the laggards at a more auspicious moment. Do you really think that Brussels would not want everyone in Schengen and the euro? When they have reduced nations to mere regions of the EU, they will have the power to do it. It will take a long time but they have much patience. the euro is going to need a massive bailout once the ecb stops printing money..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 24 minutes ago, Max Power said: And things were due to take giant steps forward in the next decade. Britain would have been in the Euro, there would be economic and fiscal union, be part of a European combined armed forces arrangement, more decisions would be taken centrally etc..... https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/white_paper_on_the_future_of_europe_en.pdf Option five is the obvious aim of the EU, creating a sort of United States of Europe or Soviet Union of Europe, depending on your viewpoint. That is what we would get if we stayed within the EU, some obviously want that or don't understand the implications, others want out and don't understand the implications of that! conscription for teens for the eu army...... the lies told by remain....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 18 hours ago, woolley said: This is what they want you to believe! No other FTA acts like this one. Parliament! Flag! Anthem! Currency! Court of Justice! It's a trojan horse invading all areas of the judicial, political and economic life of member states. I understand that some people are content with that and actively believe it's a good thing. The other 95% need to wake up fast. The USA is a free trade area with parliament, flag, anthem, currency court of justice..... After the Revolutionary War it struggled with confederation v federation v individual states...There were many plans and struggles and political theories far too convoluted to explain here .Easy it was Not!... Eventually they settled on a system with "States' Rights" and certain powers reserved to the states. The EU tried "Subsidiarity" aping this idea. Even so "States Rights" led to the civil war when some states left the Union over the slavery issue interfering with their rights..The war between the states was fought largely to preserve the Union and it developed eventually as we see it today. Even monetary union took 150 years (1911 apparently)...There were many conflicting theories put forward as to how to organise the former colonies and new territory into some sort of grouping which many opposed...(The UK donated more land to the USA than it needed to for the purpose of trade and easing the population explosion.) They had a massive immigration problem with migrants settling in the wilderness out of control of the East Coast established political economy... If ever you research it the development of the USA and their Union mirrored very much the struggles of the EU..I suppose the UK is like the Canadian option of resisting federal union with the USA? Britain refused to let the Americans have Canada and the Canadians later fought a war 1812-1814 to resist an American take over. I regard the EU at present as being like the USA between 1814 and 1865...There were even times when some New England states wanted renew the old alliance with Britain..Texas in the 1840s even offered to place itself under British suzerainty because the USA was interfering too much..like Brussels. Even to this day with a federal USA and state governments there are several states in the West and South West who insist on "States' Rights" and view Washington and even the Presidency as we view Brussels and the European Commission.... But eventually the USA evolved from colonies to territories then states and ultimately one currency, flag, anthem etc...But only if "States' Rights" whilst diminishing are respected so the states have their own flags, justice, laws, legislature etc..in addition to the federal system. I think the "Star Spangled Banner" became the USA national anthem in 1931 but it was based on an English drinking song and the lyric written by a American lawyer on the deck of a British warship bombarding Baltimore...They also use our "God Save the Queen" although the lyric is "My country 'tis of thee sweet land of liberty". I explain Brexit to Americans by saying it is frustration at attempts to force though a United States of Europe and is just as painful as forcing through the creation of the USA from 1776 to 1865 and even beyond....Americans had their own version of Brexit. Some say it is not over yet as shown by present day attitudes still extant in the old Confederacy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 You wait and see...After Brexit the ECJ will mirror the US Supreme Court and declare that the EU is an indissoluble union. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 (edited) Very interesting Barrie. The main difference here is that European states are well developed with long standing histories, laws, languages, cultures and customs. The USA is essentially a sort of democracy, it has a coast to coast well manufactured culture, history and customs. The EU is more like the Soviet Union, with around 30 unelected officials dictating policy to a quasi elected bunch of EU area MEPs who are unable to keep up with what is slowly being drip fed through! It was actually a Brit who wrote the Star Spangled Banner. Edited December 22, 2018 by Max Power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, Max Power said: Very interesting Barrie. The main difference here is that European states are well developed with long standing histories, laws, languages and customs. The USA is essentially a sort of democracy whereas the EU is more like the Soviet Union, with around 30 unelected officials dictating policy to a quasi elected bunch of EU area MEPs who are unable to keep up with what is slowly being drip fed through! It was actually a Brit who wrote the Star Spangled Banner. Exactly which is why Margaret Thatcher would say a forced federal Europe will not work because we are already established long warring peoples....I do not believe the UK will fit into a federal EU but voted Remain to preserve our own Union and as the lesser of the two evils at present...At present!... The tune or anthem to the Star Spangled Banner was written by church organist and musician John Stafford Smith 1750-1836. He came from Gloucester and did not go to America. He wrote as a sideline Glee Club male quartet harmony songs which is why singing the Star Spangled Banner is difficult!..It was more like "Barbershop" and was called Anacreon in Heaven...The song and tune travelled to the USA and was current in Baltimore in 1814 when the British bombarded Fort McHeny. The lyric to Star Spangled Banner was penned by American lawyer Francis Scott Key who was on board a British warship negotiating parole terms for captured American officers...He saw the stars and stripes still flying over the fort after a massive shelling and wrote that which evolved as the USA national anthem... Strictly speaking the term anthem refers to the music bereft of lyric so one could say that technically a Brit (John Stafford Smith) wrote the American national anthem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Stop comparing the EU to the Soviet Union. It's a ridiculous comparison, insulting to our partners in the EU, and Faragist propaganda of the worst kind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said: Stop comparing the EU to the Soviet Union. It's a ridiculous comparison, insulting to our partners in the EU, and Faragist propaganda of the worst kind. Explain how it isn't like the Soviet model, what is different, or rather what would be different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Max Power said: Explain how it isn't like the Soviet model, what is different, or rather what would be different? Well, there's no Novichock for a start. Plus I don't remember the EU annexing Crimea and starting a conflict that will last and last. Did the EU use social media to meddle in the US elections? Don't think so. Then there's that tricky democracy thing where folks vote for representatives in the parliament. You know. Stuff like that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 13 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said: Stop comparing the EU to the Soviet Union. It's a ridiculous comparison, insulting to our partners in the EU, and Faragist propaganda of the worst kind. In fact it's so ridiculous Woody2 quotes it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, P.K. said: Well, there's no Novichock for a start. Plus I don't remember the EU annexing Crimea and starting a conflict that will last and last. Did the EU use social media to meddle in the US elections? Don't think so. Then there's that tricky democracy thing where folks vote for representatives in the parliament. You know. Stuff like that.... The Soviet Union did none of those things as you know, the Russian Federation on the other hand may have. The Soviet Union had elections to the so called Supreme Soviet, like the EU Parliament but it was run by an unelected committee of around 30 people, like the EU. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Max Power said: The Soviet Union did none of those things as you know, the Russian Federation on the other hand may have. The Soviet Union had elections to the so called Supreme Soviet, like the EU Parliament but it was run by an unelected committee of around 30 people, like the EU. Pathetic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, P.K. said: Pathetic... Why? ETA. You are comparing the acts and perceived acts of the Soviet Union, I am comparing the political system, which is almost identical. Edited December 22, 2018 by Max Power 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, P.K. said: In fact it's so ridiculous Woody2 quotes it..... never have.... 10 minutes ago, P.K. said: Plus I don't remember the EU annexing Crimea and starting a conflict that will last and last. Did the EU use social media to meddle in the US elections? Don't think so. how about annexing northern ireland and creating a civil war...... how much interference has the eu done via the media and institutions by its funding of them...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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