So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[pongo]

1 hour ago, woody2 said:

how about annexing northern ireland and creating a civil war......

Great Britain occupied and then partitioned Ireland long before the EU ever existed. The context of shared EU membership has been an important part of ending the civil war.

Worth noting that many on the moderate Unionist side are strongly anti Brexit. Especially business and the farming community - ie DUP marginals. Sooner or later they will no longer be the majority party in Stormont.

Edited December 22, 2018 by pongo

[woolley]

On 12/17/2018 at 9:37 PM, Freggyragh said:

Thanks for your detailed reply Woolley.

The world changes and the European Community had to change. The other members of the EC was concerned about re-united Germany, and the newly democratic states to the east - that’s why they wanted to tie Germany into the single market and why they wanted more political integration. That isn’t easy when each country has different laws on health, hygiene, safety, training, education and rights and makes it very difficult to negotiate with third countries. The obvious thing to do was pool sovereignty, knowing that the limited clout each country had within the EU was going to be magnified each time a new country, such as Canada or Japan, signed a deal and had to enact the same standards - eg; both Canada and Japan had to enact gdpr legislation before they got their FTAs. When it comes to EU  standards and regs the U.K., whether it helps frame them or not, will have to comply, just like Japan and Canada have to. I can’t think of any European legislation that has caused me any trouble at all. I still buy ale in pints and pay in pounds. I don’t want the smoking ban overturned and I’m happy with the working-time regs. The only benefit you’ve ever cited for leaving is the obsolete tungsten lamp theory. Better than the bendy bananas or the 3 pin plug nonsense, but surely you must have some other reason?

The Balkans wars brought home to everyone the need for some agreement on foreign policy - as the various countries all held different views. It was a reminder to everyone of the stupid situation during the Falklands where French exocet missiles were being used against the Brits. I understand why the Russians, Saudis, Turks, ISIS and Chinese might not like European cooperation on security, defence and foreign policy, decided on by democratic states working together - but I can’t  understand why you don’t. 

Not everyone wanted to adopt the euro, or Schengen - and those who didn’t opted out. They were allowed to opt out, whether by referendum or not. I agree, a good thing in many ways, but don’t forget that pound was trading at €1.60 on the first day of circulation on 02/01/02 - and since then the pound has dropped 30%. 

I appreciate your viewpoint - but, sorry to say, it is nebulous. I’m not interested in sweeping generalisations that can’t be backed up, like ‘fundamentally’ and ‘obviously’ - if it’s so obvious give us a few, no, just one or two clear examples of what it is you don’t like. 

“Allowed to opt out.” Just think about that for a moment. Nice of them, isn’t it?

I am grateful for the temperate and polite nature of this post. It makes a pleasant change on this generally strident and hostile thread. I am not sure though, how a fundamental belief in national sovereignty and self-determination can be termed a “sweeping generalisation”. You either get the concept or you don’t, and if you don’t then “one or two clear examples” is not going to assist and we will have to agree to differ. I will say I don’t want an EU passport, I want a British passport. I will say I don’t believe that a foreign court should have power over the highest British court. These are points of basic principle, but obviously they don’t matter to half of the population which is why we are in the state we are in. This is the point to which the EU has brought the UK – fighting a political civil war that splits the country right down to families arguing over the kitchen table. The EU is toxic to this country and it is a slippery slope. It is hardly surprising, of course, that so many people don’t give a tinker’s cuss after decades of liberal establishment conditioning that bigger is better.

Most people who espouse the EU cause, certainly on here, seem to be concerned only with discussing the minutiae of trade without a word to anything else. I believe this to be no accident, as all of the publicity from Project Fear onwards has been slewed in this direction. It’s all about trade. Naturally, I accept fully the importance of trade, but I maintain that trade will continue much as before whatever the final outcome. There are too many powerful vested interests for it to be otherwise. Everyone needs to buy and sell. In fact, as I’ve said many times, if the EU WERE a genuine trading bloc, and not a putative pan-continental superstate, then I would have no problem with it, provided the tariffs on imports from outside were made to benefit/handicap all members equally, and not be slewed against the UK interest as they have been during our entire membership. These iniquities seamlessly transfer billions from the pockets of UK citizens to the profits of continental producers who sell at way above world prices safely cossetted by EU tariff barriers.

The EU by definition is not a trading bloc (perhaps the EEC WAS), but something far more dangerous. It is moving insidiously to assert control of Europe at a continental level. It has been brain washing citizens for decades and it is still doing so. It is self-serving and it is gradually usurping more power from the nation states treaty by treaty.

I listened to some interviews of remain supporters on an “exit from Brexit” march and I was struck by the naivety of many of their views. Much of it the usual isolation “can’t manage on our own” nonsense (the fifth largest economy on the planet), to “can’t go on holiday”, “peace” and trade concerns built on Project Fear foundations such as planes won’t fly and trains will stop running across the channel. They do actually believe this guff.

The most worrying aspect of all was that some of them opined that they were being robbed of their identity. One woman actually professed to “feeling more European than British”. No doubt, this is music to the ears of the metropolitan liberals who have orchestrated the social engineering of generations. How disgraceful that we have people who freely admit to this without shame! In reality, she has indeed been robbed of her indentity; just not in the way she thinks. It has been appropriated by the EU project. What a dereliction of duty half a century of our leaders have perpetrated where British people feel a stronger allegiance to the EU than they do to the UK. Can you imagine an American saying she “feels more NAFTA than American”? Ridiculous, right? But this illustrates succinctly the difference between the EU and a genuine trading bloc. It’s the baggage that comes with it that is so dangerous.

 What to do when the inevitable happens and the whole house of cards collapses in acrimony? The power vacuum will be so profound that the consequences across the continent will be totally unpredictable. I wonder how many countries will realise that it’s a fools’ paradise before it’s too late.   

[woolley]

On 12/17/2018 at 11:20 PM, Freggyragh said:

I can’t comment on whether immigration is causing problems, it clearly is in some areas, just as depopulation causes problems in others. That’s mostly down to how the U.K. government controls immigration (or not) and investment in communities. Not the EU’s fault. 

The workers’ rights issue is a probably a problem for right wingers - but more of a problem is the total detachment from, and Luddite suspicion of, the modern world. 

This would be globalisation, presumably? The very worst concept that ever put to sea with regard to workers’ rights, yet beloved of virtue signalling champagne socialists everywhere. Roughly translated it means big money can do exactly as it likes and everything will be made where labour is cheapest and regulation laxest. Multinationals will then sell the cheaply made goods for top dollar in each region and use a compliant global licensing system to ban grey imports (except by themselves!).

[woolley]

On 12/19/2018 at 6:04 PM, Freggyragh said:

The main news is that ................... the economy is shrinking,

Actually, and I realise that it must be a terrible disappointment, the economy is growing and has done every quarter since the referendum. This is despite Project Fear and people who should know better inside and outside of government, and even the idiot governor of the Bank of England, talking it down. I sometimes wonder about the motives of people who appear to cheer every problem of the UK while applauding every missive from the EU or the Irish Government. Do we have a cell of Gaelic supremacists here?

[woolley]

On 12/19/2018 at 8:25 PM, Freggyragh said:

He is useless.

 

On 12/19/2018 at 7:24 PM, P.K. said:

So what would you like Corbyn to do about the situation?

Don't tell me that you are suggesting he ISN'T useless.

[woolley]

23 hours ago, Max Power said:

And things were due to take giant steps forward in the next decade. Britain would have been in the Euro, there would be economic and fiscal union,  be part of a European combined armed forces arrangement, more decisions would be taken centrally etc.....

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/white_paper_on_the_future_of_europe_en.pdf

Option five is the obvious aim of the EU, creating a sort of United States of Europe or Soviet Union of Europe, depending on your viewpoint. That is what we would get if we stayed within the EU, some obviously want that or don't understand the implications, others want out and don't understand the implications of that! 

 

21 hours ago, Barrie Stevens said:

 You wait and see...After Brexit the ECJ will mirror the US Supreme Court and declare that the EU is an indissoluble union.

 

21 hours ago, Max Power said:

Very interesting Barrie. The main difference here is that European states are well developed with long standing histories, laws, languages, cultures and customs. The USA is essentially a sort of democracy, it has a coast to coast well manufactured culture, history and customs. The EU is more like the Soviet Union, with around 30 unelected officials dictating policy to a quasi elected bunch of EU area MEPs who are unable to keep up with what is slowly being drip fed through! 

It was actually a Brit who wrote the Star Spangled Banner.  

Thank you Max Power and Barrie for at last bringing a wider perspective to this than "it's trade innit?" Very refreshing to have others here who are not blind to what is happening.

[woolley]

17 hours ago, Shake me up Judy said:

Stop comparing the EU to the Soviet Union. It's a ridiculous comparison, insulting to our partners in the EU, and Faragist propaganda of the worst kind.

That's exactly what it isn't, SMUJ. It isn't insulting to our partners in the EU. They are every bit as imperiled by ever closer union. They are historic sovereign states and they need to be protected from those who would usurp power from them to the EU centre. It is no slight on those countries themselves.

[P.K.]

56 minutes ago, woolley said:

Don't tell me that you are suggesting he ISN'T useless.

Keep up at the back...!

On 12/21/2018 at 8:46 AM, P.K. said:

You missed the important point.

A half decent opposition would have ripped the current totally useless administration and their so-called negotiations to shreds.

The Maybot can say "My deal or no deal" because she knows, as does Corbyn, that a vote of No Confidence could well bring her government down. But it's likely the tories would win the election that followed.

As I see it the reason we have the worst administration I have ever known is because the opposition are equally as bad...

 

[woody2]

16 hours ago, pongo said:

Great Britain occupied and then partitioned Ireland long before the EU ever existed. The context of shared EU membership has been an important part of ending the civil war.

Worth noting that many on the moderate Unionist side are strongly anti Brexit. Especially business and the farming community - ie DUP marginals. Sooner or later they will no longer be the majority party in Stormont.

must of missed the eu's signature on the gfa.......

care to share........

[woody2]

On 12/21/2018 at 8:46 AM, P.K. said:

You missed the important point.

A half decent opposition would have ripped the current totally useless administration and their so-called negotiations to shreds.

The Maybot can say "My deal or no deal" because she knows, as does Corbyn, that a vote of No Confidence could well bring her government down. But it's likely the tories would win the election that followed.

As I see it the reason we have the worst administration I have ever known is because the opposition are equally as bad...

not at the moment......

[woolley]

On the twelfth day of Christmas my stalker sent to me:

Twelve xenophobics,

Eleven Goves a lying,

Ten stupid BoJos,

Nine Soubrys whingeing,

Eight Junckers drinking,

Seven Maastricht Treaties,

Six Courts of Justice,

Five right wing rags, (which is to say pretty much all of them)

Four Farage rants,

Three no deals,

Two referenda,

And a sovereignty consigned to history.

Merry Christmas, PK and all the EmmEffers. 

[P.K.]

5 hours ago, woolley said:

Merry Christmas, PK and all the EmmEffers. 

What a nice sentiment.

Have a good one all.

[Barrie Stevens]

5 hours ago, woolley said:

On the twelfth day of Christmas my stalker sent to me:

 

Twelve xenophobics,

 

Eleven Goves a lying,

 

Ten stupid BoJos,

 

Nine Soubrys whingeing,

 

Eight Junckers drinking,

 

Seven Maastricht Treaties,

 

Six Courts of Justice,

 

Five right wing rags, (which is to say pretty much all of them)

Four Farage rants,

 

Three no deals,

 

Two referenda,

 

And a sovereignty consigned to history.

 

Merry Christmas, PK and all the EmmEffers. 

 

[Barrie Stevens]

5 hours ago, woolley said:

On the twelfth day of Christmas my stalker sent to me:

 

Twelve xenophobics,

 

Eleven Goves a lying,

 

Ten stupid BoJos,

 

Nine Soubrys whingeing,

 

Eight Junckers drinking,

 

Seven Maastricht Treaties,

 

Six Courts of Justice,

 

Five right wing rags, (which is to say pretty much all of them)

Four Farage rants,

 

Three no deals,

 

Two referenda,

 

And a sovereignty consigned to history.

 

Merry Christmas, PK and all the EmmEffers. 

 

[Barrie Stevens]