woody2 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 9 hours ago, P.K. said: Stuff and nonsense to try and deflect attention from the illegal activity of Leave EU. The rules are simply that the government can issue a leaflet just like they did for the Scottish referendum and others before them. Established practice. And before anyone bleats and moans about it was "pro-Remain" well what the hell else did you expect as the government does have a duty to inform the electorate what they think is best for them prior to a referendum? You know, the government is actually allowed to express an opinion. Funny that. Unlike Leave EU no illegality has taken place. And after all the blantant lies shamelessly promoted by the Leave campaign and avidly supported by the UK right wing press, which is to say pretty much all of it, don't make yourself look stupid trying to pursue a " moral" argument over this. Expected better.... the only thing they did was follow the advice of the pro-eu electoral commission........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 23 hours ago, RIchard Britten said: More laughs a minute... The current Transport plonker is a hoot. talking of transport....... not another one from your side........ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-46765588 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 24 minutes ago, woody2 said: talking of transport....... not another one from your side........ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-46765588 More sad news. What's the relevance to Brexit (this thread's topic) though? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Quote You are correct - but for the opposite reason. The campaign financing was skewed in favour of Remain. Remain spent more of course but it was legal. The main reasons I think the referendum was hardly democratic is based on 1)17.4 m being allowed to take such a decision for all 66.5 million. The remaining 49.1m is close to 3 x the number of leave voters who couldn't or didn't vote . 2) Expats and EU citizens resident in the UK being excluded (likely most affected) whilst commonwealth citizens being allowed to vote (likely least affected) 3) Such a precipitous and risky change being taking forward on the narrowest of margins. 4) The electorate (including me) were not adequately informed of the real consequences of leaving. 5) The utter manipulation by social media sources. Much of this is entirely the previous government's fault, not the electorate's as was the utter stupidity of not working out that their claims of the majority consequences of leaving would be delayed by at least 3 years (and therefore have yet to happen). They also failed to provide a balancing view and checks on social media which again is not the electorate's fault. As for the leaflet, yep I accept that point. However, having read it many times since, it is generally accurate unlike devious but clever bus messages and breaking point posters. As for head starts, how's about 30+ years of utterly stupid and simplistic anti-EU rhetoric produced year in year out by the gutter press that the disaster capitalists very easily built upon? That is a head start! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 36 minutes ago, ballaughbiker said: Remain spent more of course but it was legal. The main reasons I think the referendum was hardly democratic is based on 1)17.4 m being allowed to take such a decision for all 66.5 million. The remaining 49.1m is close to 3 x the number of leave voters who couldn't or didn't vote . 2) Expats and EU citizens resident in the UK being excluded (likely most affected) whilst commonwealth citizens being allowed to vote (likely least affected) 3) Such a precipitous and risky change being taking forward on the narrowest of margins. 4) The electorate (including me) were not adequately informed of the real consequences of leaving. 5) The utter manipulation by social media sources. Much of this is entirely the previous government's fault, not the electorate's as was the utter stupidity of not working out that their claims of the majority consequences of leaving would be delayed by at least 3 years (and therefore have yet to happen). They also failed to provide a balancing view and checks on social media which again is not the electorate's fault. As for the leaflet, yep I accept that point. However, having read it many times since, it is generally accurate unlike devious but clever bus messages and breaking point posters. As for head starts, how's about 30+ years of utterly stupid and simplistic anti-EU rhetoric produced year in year out by the gutter press that the disaster capitalists very easily built upon? That is a head start! then why are they pending investigation........ a for your other points= tosh........ 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 2 hours ago, ballaughbiker said: As for the leaflet, yep I accept that point. However, having read it many times since, it is generally accurate unlike devious but clever bus messages and breaking point posters. I don't accept it as it's been established practice across all parties for absolutely ages. So all the brexiteers dripping and moaning about it should direct their ire against the HoC as it's their legislation that makes it possible. A point worth considering is that with all the appalling lies spouted by the bexiteers the ONLY push-back they seem to have is the perfectly legal leaflet. Puts it in perspective for those who are of reasonable mind..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 2 hours ago, ballaughbiker said: Remain spent more of course but it was legal. I don't think Remain did spend more in real terms. As this graph on supportive pieces printed in the UK so-called "newspapers" shows: Never mind the leaflet every day thousands and thousands of households were bombarded by the most appalling hairy sphericals all for the Leave campaign. If they had to pay for it then it would have run into millions and millions. They got it all for free. But now we all have to pay for it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Also, to be fair, it wasn’t all lies from the leave campaign. Mostly half-truths that played on the misconceptions, thinly veiled bigotry, laziness and wishful thinking of the plebs - pushed by careerist politicians who didn’t expect or plan for winning, and the mega-wealthy who just don’t care what needs to be said or done, or what happens to the little people, just as long as they can carry on avoiding paying taxes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 the only thing proven to effect the outcome was the "call me dave" leaflet....... out of all the propaganda since from different bodies (cbi etc.) not one hadn't had funding from the eu......... all pro-remoan before the referendum as well......... i think you 4 are only upset because china has sent your favourite toy to the moon....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 It's interesting, there is very little willingness on the part of Remain supporters to acknowledge there was a philosophical or political justification for wanting to leave. Freggyragh's post exemplifies this. It is all about self-serving motives and bigotry. I was a firm remain supporter, but given the reality of the vote, taking democracy seriously, I accept Brexit, and find the idea that it is the end of the world silly. Life will carry on. I also increasingly find it unacceptable to brand Brexit supporters as deluded by half-truths, taken in by misconceptions, lazy bigots and plebs. Sovereignty is important - whether over regulations for Kettles and vacuum cleaners, farm and fishing subsides, taxation, monetary policy or who and what can freely cross a border. The EU was becoming over dominant in huge areas of our political life with Sovereignty dissipating into the Euro-superstate at the command of bureaucrats and the Brussels gravy-train. The political philosophy based in Sovereignty is perfectly respectable. How it interacts with Globalisation is the issue of our age. If Remainers are going to continually brand supporters of Brexit as bigots and fools then politics will remain dangerously polarised. Right-wing ideas can be just as well based within a respectable political framework as left-wing ones. There are knaves and fools on both extremes, but to so brand all Brexit supporters isn't accurate or useful, but that is all Leave supporters seem to have. And hence, in my view, they are likely to continue to lose the argument. Leave is more complex than that, and has deeper and stronger political roots than Remainers believe. 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 it was never a left or right vote, something the remoans just don't get........ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Thankfully the whole Brexit debate is about to move into a completely different phase (one way or another). The question will then come about as to what happens to any Remain Refusenik's and to what extent they will be tolerated. Virtually every society, from tribes through businesses, sports teams, the military, and thence to whole countries elect a leader or leadership team who make the day to day decisions and, when required for the bigger decisions, they engage the whole 'tribe' in debate followed, if necessary, by a vote. Dictatorships aside, debate is normally allowed but, on the gavel's decent, the decision is adopted as policy and the whole tribe or team is expected to rally in support of the plan. Further debate may or may not be permitted, but even where further debate is tolerated, tribe or team members are expected to work to the agreed plan for the benefit (and possibly survival) of the tribe for as long as that is the agreed policy. Sportsmen not playing for the team would be dropped, Directors operating against board decisions would be removed (and could face action for breach of fiduciary duties), disloyal tribesmen would be disciplined and eventually kicked out of the tribe. In short, those not playing for the team because their personal choice had been defeated in the vote would be deemed 'Outcasts' and once cast-out would no longer receive the protection and perks associated with the tribe/society. At what stage in the Brexit process will the refusenik's cease to be considered as objectors and start to be treated as outcasts? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 only a handful of remoans left now- most have accepted the democratic referendum result....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 6 hours ago, woody2 said: yet the numbers working have gone up........... The issue is the skilled and qualified persons who have decided to leave as they feel unable to establish roots post Brexit...Rightly or wrongly... As regards the number of people working Govt statistics are not the whole truth. Not been so since the early 1980s... There is much manipulation. Some people have 16 hours of work but receive big Benefits. They do no count as being out of work. Others on schemes do not count. Some are on courses and do not count. Many are "parked" on Job Seekers or whatever they call it. After a while they are "churned" on to a scheme or course or voluntary work...Then when this runs out are "parked" back on Job Seekers or whatever they call then "churned again". Between the age of 60 and 65 I was paid quite well to stay out if the Job Centre/Market. They said we will keep paying you and you do not need to sign on every two weeks. I had me a paid holiday until I qualified for the "Lloyd George"... I was not counted as unemployed and many were like me paid to go away and not become added to the statistics. Unemployment and Employment are just legal definitions not matter of fact. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 10 hours ago, asitis said: The only ones I have seen are from the Chief Minister ....... so NO ! Stop slagging off the IOM and its leadership...That is or was my job! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.