Manximus Aururaneus Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 16 hours ago, John Wright said: In a democracy there is never a final decision or unchangeable plan. The debate is continuous and never ends. The population, team or tribe is ever changing. The U.K. “people” are different today than in 2016. Two million people have moved off the electoral register and two million have joined. You need to think that in the 118 years since 1900 the average time between general elections is a little over 3 years. ( that’s if you strip out the war years where elections were postponed and not held and remembering that originally parliaments had a theoretical 7 year life. The clue is in this quote from your earlier post “for as long as that is agreed policy”. You can only know if a policy is agreed, or still agreed, or if views have changed, by having elections and referenda. Those who don’t agree with the original decision must be allowed the right of dissent and opposition and debate AND to be heard. Otherwise it’s a totalitarian, centrally controlled 1984, with thought police. With respect, that is not my point John. I am not advocating restriction on the continuing right to debate and be heard - I'm saying that, if we want to enjoy and partake in the rights and benefits associated with membership of a tribe/Company/Sports team/ Country whatever - then we have a duty / obligation to support efforts in the direction chosen by the majority until such time as that is no longer the democratic decision. If the board of directors of a company, having listened to the arguments either way, votes to pursue path 'X' - then the minority of board members who voted for 'Y' must nevertheless respect and support the 'X' decision for as long as that remains company policy (or resign). 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 when does the new week start?????????????????????????????????????????? "Next week's vote would "definitely" go ahead, she told the BBC" "MPs are expected to be asked to vote on it on either the 14 or 15 of January " eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: if we want to enjoy and partake in the rights and benefits associated with membership of a tribe/Company/Sports team/ Country whatever - then we have a duty / obligation to support efforts in the direction chosen by the majority until such time as that is no longer the democratic decision. If the board of directors of a company, having listened to the arguments either way, votes to pursue path 'X' - then the minority of board members who voted for 'Y' must nevertheless respect and support the 'X' decision for as long as that remains company policy (or resign). Britain is not a company. We are not employees. Nor are we the members of a tribe or a team. There is no obligation or duty to support a majority decision. The current polling now points to a significant majority being opposed to Brexit. I'm broadly in favour of leaving at this stage - though I accept that there are many different competing opinions about what leaving should look like. A few crackpots favour a scorched earth 'no deal' - where as others favour a pragmatic and business focused outcome. None of us is required to support the majority who now apparently oppose leaving. Edited January 6, 2019 by pongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 15 hours ago, P.K. said: Then you have an imagination vivid enough to write schoolgirl fiction.... I view the whole Brexit farrago as an absolute tragedy. When times are hard those with the least suffer the most. Something I never forget.... Sometimes you need to use your imagination, otherwise you become gullible and sleepwalk into situations which are less than desirable. When times are hard, it is always those with the least who suffer, as they have been since the last financial crisis and the one before that and the one before that! Nothing to do with the EU helping them out! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: I am not advocating restriction on the continuing right to debate and be heard - I'm saying that, if we want to enjoy and partake in the rights and benefits associated with membership of a tribe/Company/Sports team/ Country whatever - then we have a duty / obligation to support efforts in the direction chosen by the majority until such time as that is no longer the democratic decision. You are clearly not aware that democracy must never be a tyranny of the majority. http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/08/02/thanks-to-the-referendum-the-tyranny-of-the-majority-has-prevailed/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 57 minutes ago, pongo said: Britain is not a company. We are not employees. Nor are we the members of a tribe or a team. There is no obligation or duty to support a majority decision. The current polling now points to a significant majority being opposed to Brexit. I'm broadly in favour of leaving at this stage - though I accept that there are many different competing opinions about what leaving should look like. A few crackpots favour a scorched earth 'no deal' - where as others favour a pragmatic and business focused outcome. None of us is required to support the majority who now apparently oppose leaving. no it doesn't........ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, P.K. said: You are clearly not aware that democracy must never be a tyranny of the majority. http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/08/02/thanks-to-the-referendum-the-tyranny-of-the-majority-has-prevailed/ have you got any links not funded by they eu........... highly inaccurate as usual....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Max Power said: Sometimes you need to use your imagination, otherwise you become gullible and sleepwalk into situations which are less than desirable. When times are hard, it is always those with the least who suffer, as they have been since the last financial crisis and the one before that and the one before that! Nothing to do with the EU helping them out! As in sleepwalk into a catastrophic no deal brexit. Sure it's always those with the least who suffer the most but there's no need to exacerbate the situation with ill thought out policies like brexit and universal credit. The more I come on here the more I realise just how right-wing it is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 26 minutes ago, P.K. said: As in sleepwalk into a catastrophic no deal brexit. Sure it's always those with the least who suffer the most but there's no need to exacerbate the situation with ill thought out policies like brexit and universal credit. The more I come on here the more I realise just how right-wing it is... its been law for over a year....... hardly sleepwalking...... uc mess up is down to the union run cs- no one else........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, P.K. said: The more I come on here the more I realise just how right-wing it is... It's a case of everyone who doesn't agree with you is a right-winger. Nowt more, nowt less. The anti-bigot bigot... Edited January 6, 2019 by quilp 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, P.K. said: The more I come on here the more I realise just how right-wing it is... I think I'm a bit more socialist than anything. I'm not daft enough to think that anything worth having hasn't got a cost though, and I believe that our freedom from a future European Federation is definitely worth having. Edited January 6, 2019 by Max Power 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) 57 minutes ago, quilp said: It's a case of everyone who doesn't agree with you is a right-winger. Nowt more, nowt less. The anti-bigot bigot... You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But that's all it is. Just because you sound it off it doesn't give it any validity or truth. How's the anger management going? Edited January 6, 2019 by P.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 17 minutes ago, Max Power said: I think I'm a bit more socialist than anything. I'm not daft enough to think that anything worth having hasn't got a cost though, and I believe that our freedom from a future European Federation is definitely worth having. Fair enough. Any projections in £numbers to back that up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, pongo said: Britain is not a company. We are not employees. Nor are we the members of a tribe or a team. There is no obligation or duty to support a majority decision. The current polling now points to a significant majority being opposed to Brexit. I'm broadly in favour of leaving at this stage - though I accept that there are many different competing opinions about what leaving should look like. A few crackpots favour a scorched earth 'no deal' - where as others favour a pragmatic and business focused outcome. None of us is required to support the majority who now apparently oppose leaving. 3 hours ago, P.K. said: You are clearly not aware that democracy must never be a tyranny of the majority. http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/08/02/thanks-to-the-referendum-the-tyranny-of-the-majority-has-prevailed/ I have to offer you Gentlemen an apology. I have completely misunderstood the workings of the European Political Project, and, had I properly understood the fantastic(al) workings of this new social model - I would have been the first to vote remain and would have encouraged my leave leaning friends to follow my lead. 1. I simply did not realise that, unlike a tribe, a business, a sports team, or any other country on earth, the European Political Project had invented / discovered a system whereby majority decisions were optional! "There is no obligation or duty to support a majority decision." WOW!!!!!!! 2. I simply did not appreciate that the Common Fisheries Policy was voluntary! I honestly believed that, if the EU Commission, by majority vote, passed laws that restricted vessel size, imposed quotas, and enforced discards, then I naively thought that it would be compulsory on all - not just an obligation only on those who voted in favour of the laws! "democracy must never be a tyranny of the majority." Wow, Wow, Wow!!!!!!!! I'm now with you guys all the way! Had I known that the EU had devised a social system whereby only those who agreed with (and voted for) EU taxes (VAT, TVA Etc.) actually had to pay them then I would have been in all along. Had I known that socialists could vote in all the benefits they wish, but that only those that voted for that decision were bound to pay the taxes to fund it then carry on for me chopper. Majority decisions are no longer binding on anyone that did not vote in the majority - Wow, Oh Wow, Oh Wow - Unbelievable! Count me in !!!!! (Ps. Could one of you Gentlemen who have enlightened me so please forward a reference to the relevant confirming EU legislation just in case I meet any sceptical idiots of low IQ who may not be aware of these new social models.) Ta. Edited January 6, 2019 by Manximus Aururaneus 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 16 minutes ago, P.K. said: Fair enough. Any projections in £numbers to back that up? Did Churchill have the numbers to back up his opposition to Hitler? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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