So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[Freggyragh]

You are joking about Corbyn aren’t you? That throwback to the seventies was a Russian Brexit bot pre-Internet and before the fall of the Berlin Wall. 

Interestingly, I met Nigel the other day. A prematurely old and strikingly weedy little man in bright yellow trousers and a country squire jacket. I was struck with the thought that his mug shot should be a warning on fag packets. He comes across as very lonely and timid away from a microphone. Living testimony that money can’t buy you happiness. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Freggyragh

[P.K.]

3 minutes ago, Freggyragh said:

You are joking about Corbyn aren’t you? That throwback to the seventies was a Russian Brexit bot pre-Internet and before the fall of the Berlin Wall. 

Interestingly, I met Nigel the other day. A prematurely old and strikingly weedy little man in bright yellow trousers and a country squire jacket. I was struck with the thought that his mug shot should be a warning on fag packets. He comes across as very lonely and timid away from a microphone. Living testimony that money can’t buy you happiness. 

Maybe not but you get a better class of enemy - SM

[doc.fixit]

meanwhile. China and Russia consolidate their bases and push forward with quiet, slow but relentless acquisition and military growth......to what end?

[the stinking enigma]

1 hour ago, Freggyragh said:

 

Interestingly, I met Nigel the other day. A prematurely old and strikingly weedy little man in bright yellow trousers and a country squire jacket. 

And how was nigel dressed?

[Manximus Aururaneus]

35 minutes ago, doc.fixit said:

meanwhile. China and Russia consolidate their bases and push forward with quiet, slow but relentless acquisition and military growth......to what end?

Don't baffle them with logic Doc, it will fry their brains.

[Freggyragh]

China and Russia are both very concerning. They’re been working on soft power, propaganda and destabilisation in Western Europe, North America and East Asia for some time, and on Economic control in the Middle East, Africa and even South America. They’ve done a reasonable job of dividing Europe so far - some way to go before they make their moves yet though. 

[woolley]

4 hours ago, P.K. said:

Time to put this nonsense in perspective.

So here is the FULL quote:

“We will not gamble on peace or put a sell-by date on reconciliation. And this is why we insist on the backstop,” Mr Tusk said, alluding clearly to British demands for a backstop exit mechanism. “The EU 27 will not be making any new offer.

"I've been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely.”

So it was all about the NI border and the complete lack of any mention about how to manage it throughout the brexit campaign. As I have posted previously I'm very glad that the EU take the GFA a lot more seriously as above than our own Brexiteers. So, it would appear, do the Irish:

This Ireland border stuff is total rubbish. A red herring to draw in the gullible and you, naturally, have taken it all in like a toilet. Everyone is committed to no hard border whatever happens. Have you forgotten that? It is all part of their machinations to try to keep the UK in the customs union and deny it an independent trade policy.

[woolley]

4 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

Lxxx, I agree with your points concerning monetary union. Definitely a flawed system, that Gordon Brown was wise to keep the UK out of.

To make the leap from that position to staying out of the Single Market and all the international free trade deals and trade agreements that go with it, just so Jacob and Nigel can avoid paying their share towards social investment and defence, is ridiculous. It means that those who can’t avoid taxes will pay more and British pensions, education, health, and infrastructure will be cut to the bone. 

The EU will stand by Ireland. The ‘we hold all the cards’ nonsense was only ever as realistic as the plan for Brexit or the David Davis preparations for negotiations. The toffs and spivs, whose only plan was a tax avoidance plan, will short the pound and divert their funds elsewhere, and laugh at the willing cheerleaders they despise; the chumps who gave away their gold medal trade prospects, passports, freedoms and currency for nothing. 

What on Earth? The EU is not about freedoms! It is the antithesis of freedom. It is not about standing by Ireland either (see my previous post). Of course we have the usual jaundiced view from Freggy of all things British. No doubt we will be back to Victorian times and children up chimneys. There will be no race to the bottom. Gold medal prospects! LoL!!

[woolley]

4 hours ago, Shake me up Judy said:

Tusk is right. The neo Thatcherites like Redwood, Rees-Mogg, Duncan-Smith, Johnson, Farage. the ERG et all have never told the public what the real game is. End of post-war consensus government, end of NHS and a deregulated and free market Britain. The biggest confidence trick in the history of British politics and millions of people fell for it on the back of mass immigration to our country. They've almost got Thatcher's cold, dead, clammy hands on the prize.

Good gracious. There really has been some cobblers on here this evening. I think you are letting your historical hatred of Thatcher get the better of you, SMUJ. End of the NHS? What is this? Corbyn propaganda? There is more and more money poured into it every single year, and already there is greater funding pledged to it than was on the side of the Brexit bus. Nobody will touch it, or even bring in much needed reform simply because it is a sacred cow, and to do anything about it it is political suicide. The unions killed post-war consensus government in the 70s when they brought down Heath and, stoked up on hubris, went on to bankrupt the country under their own Labour government.

[P.K.]

14 minutes ago, woolley said:

This Ireland border stuff is total rubbish. A red herring to draw in the gullible and you, naturally, have taken it all in like a toilet. Everyone is committed to no hard border whatever happens. Have you forgotten that? It is all part of their machinations to try to keep the UK in the customs union and deny it an independent trade policy.

Dream on.

So "everyone", including Nigel Farage, is committed to no hard border then? Strange but true I don't believe he gives a stuff.  Funny that....

As I have posted before it's Brexiteers like you that make me glad that the EU take the GFA a lot more seriously than you and your ilk.

So tell me again how the GFA is rubbish to this gentleman:

 https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obriens-caller-brexit-good-friday-agreement/

Yeah.....

Right.....

[woolley]

1 minute ago, P.K. said:

Dream on.

So "everyone", including Nigel Farage, is committed to no hard border then? Strange but true I don't believe he gives a stuff.  Funny that....

As I have posted before it's Brexiteers like you that make me glad that the EU take the GFA a lot more seriously than you and your ilk.

So tell me again how the GFA is rubbish to this gentleman:

 https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obriens-caller-brexit-good-friday-agreement/

Yeah.....

Right.....

I keep telling you that everyone takes the GFA seriously for the simple reason that nobody is threatening either it or a hard border. In fact everyone is signed up to the precise opposite. Nobody said the GFA is rubbish. Nobody is trying to undermine it in any way. People's fears are simply being used by the EU to whip up baseless anxiety in an attempt to obstruct the UK having an independent trade policy. That's all there is to it and, again, you can't see past it and you take in the narrative exactly as you are supposed to.

[Freggyragh]

It’s not a jaundiced view. Its not by any means anti-British either. On the contrary, it is the Russian, Chinese and Saudi backed extremist Leaver side that is anti-British. The side that dares to invoke Dunkirk or the Spirit of the Blitz as metaphors for their sleazy political tax avoidance strategies. The side that is so nonchalant about Britain’s economic future, and doesn’t give a moment’s thought to weakening the country’s standing or reputation, the cohesion of the United Kingdom itself or the long term future of the overseas territories and dependencies. 

I think you’re generally reasonable Woolley, but you’ve taken sides in this shitshow and so I know there’s no real point in trying to persuade you that your ‘feelings’ are just wrong. The worst of British right-wing propaganda has you convinced that something not ever seen before - a completely open ‘electronic’ border between two countries with entirely different customs and tariffs arrangements - can exist, and despite having nearly three years to invent it and getting nowhere, if a group of proven liars and wild optimists say it will exist in 50 days time, you’ll believe them.

Deep down you know you are talking utter shite, but because you have invested emotional capitol in this absurd project you cannot now back down. You’re just sticking your fingers in your ears and shout ‘traitor’ at anyone who with an opposing view who genuinely cares for peoples of the U.K. (and Ireland). I think you’re better than that. 

[Freggyragh]

Woolley, here’s where you’re making a fool of yourself:

1. Simultaneously arguing for control over immigration and borders whilst simultaneously arguing for a completely open arrangement for the actual land border with the EU. Knowing full well that the only way into the UK without showing a passport, or crossing the English Channel in a rubber dinghy or hidden in a truck, is via Ireland.

2. Simultaneously arguing for the right for the UK to leave the customs union and make new trade deals and for an open border that makes any such deals completely meaningless. If tariffs, standards and quotas on either side can be circumvented by arriving in the EU via NI or into the U.K. via the ROI it is impossible for either third countries or the WTO to accept that trade deals are being conducted fairly. Do you see why there is not and cannot be any developed country in the world that shares an open border with another country unless it is also in a customs union? 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Freggyragh

[woolley]

Why thank you, Freggy. I think that you're generally reasonable too. I always enjoy reading your stuff on here because some thought obviously goes into it, even if we seldom agree on much. With the mutual appreciation society out of the way then, you are totally wrong in second guessing my motives and, unlike some around here, I take any propaganda whatever the agenda with a very large pinch of salt. I look at the information available from multiple sources and I make up my own mind. I assure you that after over 30 years in building, investing and selling businesses, I'm not easily manipulated.

Tax avoidance is largely a whore of globalisation rather than Brexit, but I accept that Britain benefits from it more than most. Paradoxically, financial services based on worldwide tax avoidance funds a great deal of actual taxation raised in the UK through the City, and that is substantially the reason why it is jealously guarded.

I genuinely do not believe your take about weakening the standing of the country, etc. I think that outside the EU our prospects will be far brighter and there will not be the sustained attacks, treaty by treaty, on its self-determination and the need for constant vigilance over its very survival as an independent state. Good thing Blair didn't get his way and take us into the Euro is all I can say! I'm not proud, incidentally. If I suddenly had a Damascus moment and realised I had been "talking utter shite" as you put it, I would say as much and start batting for the other side. I wouldn't keep up a pretence just for the sake of appearances. What would be the point on an anonymous forum?

I do appreciate that the negotiation has not been the best, because it has been conducted largely on the EU's terms. I could live with the existing withdrawal deal though. At least it gets us out to a degree. I simply can't go along with the conspiracy theories that Brexit is such a bad idea that the populace could only have voted for it at the behest of malign foreign influence. I also take what you say about not being anti-British at face value. Sometimes I have discerned what I took as a Celtic style eagerness to belittle British interests in your posts, but I am pleased to acknowledge my error if this was not the case.  I appreciate that some people even believe that remaining in the EU would be a patriotic stance for Britain, although I cannot see how that is compatible with the ultimate aims of "ever closer union" or indeed the opposite, a messy collapse of the bloc, which is also quite possible. 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not your narrow minded egg and bacon, chips and fish, foreigner hating type Englishman who goes abroad and refuses to speak the language, gets drunk and acts boorish. They are a bloody embarrassment! I spend a lot of my time in Southern Europe - particularly Spain - and I absolutely love the continent of Europe. All the more reason that I don't like what the EU, and particularly the Euro, is doing to it. I think it is built on flawed foundations, developed by lies, expanded on hubris and heading ultimately to a very dark place. Now if they just made it a free trade bloc........

[P.K.]

On 2/5/2019 at 3:33 PM, woolley said:

OK then, PK. When it's ALMOST too late, if you prefer. I've been telling you for years what the strictures of the EU (and globalisation of course) have done to its southern states. I've watched on the ground as areas of Greece, Italy and Spain have sunken further and further into despair. Generations without hope. It's really quite shocking. And people who are proponents of the union that has led to this debacle then tell me I'm an uncaring right winger. You couldn't make it up.

So care to answer this ?

 

15 hours ago, P.K. said:

You keep coming up with this as an excuse for your hatred of all things EU.

As you rightly say there are various forces at play here. So-called "strictures" of the EU, globalisation of course etc etc but you seem to conveniently forget their own sovereign governments. If we take the UK as an example the "sovereignty" card much beloved by Brexiteers everywhere is, of course, a complete and utter nonsense. Farage et al were claiming that something like 75% of UK legislation was due to falling in line with EU "policies" but the HoC Library produced the figures that showed it was a mere 13% and it was nothing to do with "policies" at all. Rather it was about food standards and so forth such as "you can't use these damaging pesticides", "you can't use these hormones",  "shipping containers should be this size and design", "provenance must be available", " no gm" etc etc.

So who and what has caused these issues you keep banging on about? I first started visiting Spain in the late seventies and you only had to go a few miles inland from the coast to find real and stark poverty.. That's only forty years ago....