So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, Lxxx said:

I'm baffled why people are so wedded to the concept we need to be in the EU. It seems to be driven by some kind of pathological desire to be seen to be as far away from anything they might perceive to be right wing than any real evidence based analysis.

It's why I do have some form of respect for Corbyn. He's about as far left as you can possibly get but he always saw the EU for what it was, which is a dictatorship driven by unelected elites obsessed with their own power. That is until he started playing games recently, but he is a Fabian so we should expect it.  

Now THAT'S funny!

You're not subbing for Woody2 by chance? He always completely ignored the fact that the politicos in the EU rose to power in democratic elections as well.....

[Freggyragh]

Heard a ukipper on the radio today ask rhetorically ‘who voted Donald Tusk President?’ It was the BBC so nobody pointed out that 27 out of 28 EU national leaders (including David Cameron for the U.K.) voted for him. 

[woolley]

22 minutes ago, Freggyragh said:

Heard a ukipper on the radio today ask rhetorically ‘who voted Donald Tusk President?’ It was the BBC so nobody pointed out that 27 out of 28 EU national leaders (including David Cameron for the U.K.) voted for him. 

Similar process to our CM then.

[P.K.]

56 minutes ago, woolley said:

Similar process to our CM then.

Hardly.

On current evidence I don't think anyone would claim that Donald Tusk is a "compromise" candidate.

But then with the "rationale" for brexit in tatters I guess you have to diss the EU at every given opportunity no matter how weak it is....

[John Wright]

Really good analysis of where we are, why, and critique of what next.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2019/01/why-uk-cannot-see-brexit-utterly-utterly-stupid

Two solutions that are politically honest.

A referendum

Politicians across parties get together and do their job, decide to stay in, in the best interests of the country.

29 March won’t stop the divide if we have a hard Brexit, or the current exit deal and transition.

The new relationship with EU, and 60+ other countries, by way of FTA will need negotiating. The ERG tories will continue fighting for unrealistic WTO no tie in rules, which are disastrous.

The suggestion that Referendum 2 or a taking back of political control, by politicians elected to do just that, will result in social unrest or revolution is no more a a risk than it happening as the UK stays in the Customs Union, or remainders rioting if there’s a hard Brexit.

Yes, there is political disillusionment with our politicians, but Brexit is just a facet, an outward expression. It was there before. In part it’s down to a decade of populist austerity, another economic unnecessary own goal.

Not sure what to do about that.

[Non-Believer]

There's probably been Civil Wars fought over less...

[P.K.]

7 hours ago, John Wright said:

Really good analysis of where we are, why, and critique of what next.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2019/01/why-uk-cannot-see-brexit-utterly-utterly-stupid

Two solutions that are politically honest.

A referendum

Politicians across parties get together and do their job, decide to stay in, in the best interests of the country.

29 March won’t stop the divide if we have a hard Brexit, or the current exit deal and transition.

The new relationship with EU, and 60+ other countries, by way of FTA will need negotiating. The ERG tories will continue fighting for unrealistic WTO no tie in rules, which are disastrous.

The suggestion that Referendum 2 or a taking back of political control, by politicians elected to do just that, will result in social unrest or revolution is no more a a risk than it happening as the UK stays in the Customs Union, or remainders rioting if there’s a hard Brexit.

Yes, there is political disillusionment with our politicians, but Brexit is just a facet, an outward expression. It was there before. In part it’s down to a decade of populist austerity, another economic unnecessary own goal.

Not sure what to do about that.

I'm not sure that a second referendum would actually achieve anything.

Over the last 18 months or so I've come to realise that bigotry played a large part in getting "Leave" over the line. Ergo these people simply do not care what damage a crash-out would do to the country. Farage et al started their campaign with all the economic lies we all know about but it wasn't moving them forward. So they changed tack by running a Project Fear about all the migrants that would be coming to the UK, an unstoppable flood of them allegedly, to settle here and overwhelm our public institutions. That gave them the result they wanted.

To me this is a very typical story:

"Most of us feel unwanted here," said Marzeena Relavska who moved to Lincolnshire from the Czech Republic more than a decade ago.

"Many of us have developed depressions and anxiety since the referendum," the 37-year-old mother-of-one said.

"Brexit created a terrible uncertainty for us. Most of us were shocked at first, confused about what to do."

Ms Relavska said some of her friends had already left and many more were now considering their future.

"If it was just me, I would have gone back to the Czech Republic a long time ago," she said.

But she said she needed to consider her 10-year-old son, who was born in the UK.

She said she would "rather suffer the 'you are not one of us' feeling" than see her son go through it.

Some of those closest to Ms Relavska, including her partner Paul, voted to leave the EU.

She told an Australian current affairs programme that she felt betrayed when she found out.

"My first thought was 'does he realise he is in a relationship with a European woman who will be affected by his vote?'"

For his part, her partner said he did not think about the impact of voting leave, and that there was now no guarantee that people already in the UK could stay.

He said he did so because of what he perceived as increased pressure on local services*.

( * this euphemism comes to you courtesy of "The Brexiteers SOP Handbook" by Nigel Farage.)

[Freggyragh]

Any more news on these great new trade deals for global Britain yet? Liam Fox promised 40 trade deals we had with third parties through EU membership would be rolled over the second after Brexit. Seems like the only countries that have agreed to that are Chilé and the Faroe Isles (how desperate or charitable must they be? - Have the Faroes got a Spar or Tesco Express they need restocking?) 

I’d say there’s a special place in hell for politicians that lied about trade deals, but it would make the snowflakes cry.

Talking of snowflakes, where is Woody2? Please don’t say he’s been banned.

[Manximus Aururaneus]

9 hours ago, John Wright said:

Really good analysis of where we are, why, and critique of what next.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2019/01/why-uk-cannot-see-brexit-utterly-utterly-stupid

Two solutions that are politically honest.

A referendum

Politicians across parties get together and do their job, decide to stay in, in the best interests of the country.

29 March won’t stop the divide if we have a hard Brexit, or the current exit deal and transition.

The new relationship with EU, and 60+ other countries, by way of FTA will need negotiating. The ERG tories will continue fighting for unrealistic WTO no tie in rules, which are disastrous.

The suggestion that Referendum 2 or a taking back of political control, by politicians elected to do just that, will result in social unrest or revolution is no more a a risk than it happening as the UK stays in the Customs Union, or remainders rioting if there’s a hard Brexit.

Yes, there is political disillusionment with our politicians, but Brexit is just a facet, an outward expression. It was there before. In part it’s down to a decade of populist austerity, another economic unnecessary own goal.

Not sure what to do about that.

Tip, Give in , you lost the referendum, it's already happened, wake up at the back.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Manximus Aururaneus

[Manximus Aururaneus]

On 2/6/2019 at 6:22 PM, P.K. said:

Time to put this nonsense in perspective.

So here is the FULL quote:

“We will not gamble on peace or put a sell-by date on reconciliation. And this is why we insist on the backstop,” Mr Tusk said, alluding clearly to British demands for a backstop exit mechanism. “The EU 27 will not be making any new offer.

"I've been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely.”

So it was all about the NI border and the complete lack of any mention about how to manage it throughout the brexit campaign. As I have posted previously I'm very glad that the EU take the GFA a lot more seriously as above than our own Brexiteers. So, it would appear, do the Irish:

A photograph was later circulated of Juncker and Varadkar reading a large “thank you card” from a family in Dublin thanking the EU for its solidarity.

The card said Ireland was drawing strength “from your word and that of your colleagues”. It added: “Britain does not care about peace in Northern Ireland. To them it’s a nuisance.

"Best Regards   Michel B  x”

Which puts this predictable demogogic nonsense from Farage look as mercenary as he really is: “After Brexit we will be free of unelected, arrogant bullies like you – sounds like heaven to me.” i.e he doesn't give a flying if hostilities flare up again. But then he isn't a tory MP so he thinks he will be blameless.

Maybe Tusk had been listening to this: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obriens-caller-brexit-good-friday-agreement/

Personally I think ALL brexiteers should be forced to listen to it right to the end. 

Then they would understand EXACTLY where Tusk is coming from.....

Tip, EU has never been part of the of the Good Friday Agreement, it is not a signatory to it, never has been, never will be. 

Why?

Because the EU is not a 'State', it is a political enterprise nothing more.

It has no legal basis in any International Court outwith it's own 'ECJ', it cannot sue (or be sue'd) - It cannot take International legal action against UK or any other 'State' because it simply does not have the legal status to do so.

I cannot even protect it's own citizens from harm because, not being a 'State' it cannot legally 'Declare War' on an aggressor.

It has no more legal stature than UKIP or the Monster Raving Looney Party.

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

Tip, EU has never been part of the of the Good Friday Agreement, it is not a signatory to it, never has been, never will be. 

Why?

Because the EU is not a 'State', it is a political enterprise nothing more.

It has no legal basis in any International Court outwith it's own 'ECJ', it cannot sue (or be sue'd) - It cannot take International legal action against UK or any other 'State' because it simply does not have the legal status to do so.

I cannot even protect it's own citizens from harm because, not being a 'State' it cannot legally 'Declare War' on an aggressor.

It has no more legal stature than UKIP or the Monster Raving Looney Party.

I think you'll find that Ireland is a member of the EU and that the EU has a vested interest in it's borders. Thus:

 

George Mitchell said the Good Friday Agreement would not have been possible without the EU.

The chair of the negotiations that led to the Good Friday Agreement has said the accord would not have been possible without the European Union.

Former US Senator George Mitchell said the UK’s vote to leave the EU was a mistake but the referendum result should be respected.

He also voiced hope that Stormont’s power-sharing institutions could be restored, saying he knew at the time of the 1998 agreement that key issues would need to be resolved further down the line.

But Mr. Mitchell also said that the “serious” issues faced by the North’s politicians today were not as difficult as those faced by political leaders 20 years ago.

“I hope and pray that the current leaders of Northern Ireland – of all parties – have the same courage, determination, vision, and commitment to the people of Northern Ireland to resolve their differences,” he said.

The former senator said the European Union played a part in thawing relations between the Republic and Britain, which he said enabled the peace process and was central to the Good Friday Agreement.

“I don’t think the European Union was essential in the [Good Friday Agreement] talks themselves, but I believe the talks would never have occurred had there not been the European Union,” he said in an interview with Radio Ulster’s Talkback.

[Freggyragh]

11 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

I cannot even protect it's own citizens from harm because, not being a 'State' it cannot legally 'Declare War' on an aggressor.

It has no more legal stature than UKIP or the Monster Raving Looney Party.

Good point. And talking of raving loonies, you do know that there are leavers on here who have been persuaded that the opposite is true. Believe it or not, they actually believe their grandchildren will be conscripted into an EU army. 

 

[John Wright]

12 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

 

Because the EU is not a 'State', it is a political enterprise nothing more.

It has no legal basis in any International Court outwith it's own 'ECJ', it cannot sue (or be sue'd) - It cannot take International legal action against UK or any other 'State' because it simply does not have the legal status to do so.

I cannot even protect it's own citizens from harm because, not being a 'State' it cannot legally 'Declare War' on an aggressor.

 

Suggest you go read Art 47 of the Lisbon Treaty. It is a legal entity, it is recognised, and can and does, join other organisations where it is recognised as a “state”. It can sue and be sued.

The ECJ is for intra EU member disputes.

Thats why the exit treaty provisions and the £39 million agreement are so important. It stops, by settlement, years of possible international claims and arbitrations.

[Freggyragh]

I reckon 99% of this thread runs like this:

1. Angry person posts a really good reason to support the ERG. 

2. Cursory checking of the facts by other posters shows without doubt that said angry person has been completely misinformed. 

3. Said angry person gets even more angry - not with the liers that poured the poison in their ear, but with the posters on here that presented the facts to them. 

4. Angry person goes back to the same sources that lied to them over and over to find a new ‘really good reason to support the ERG’. 

5. Return to 1.

I think this has come about because leavers  have invested too much emotional capital in Brexit to ever change their minds. Their behaviour is more like that of supporters of a sports team than people genuinely wanting the best for their country. That is a big problem for the Remain side. You can argue facts, you can’t argue ‘feelings’. 

 

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, Freggyragh said:

I think this has come about because leavers  have invested too much emotional capital in Brexit to ever change their minds. Their behaviour is more like that of supporters of a sports team than people genuinely wanting the best for their country. That is a big problem for the Remain side. You can argue facts, you can’t argue feelings bigotry.

Fixed!