woolley Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: Looks like Nigel Farage has forgotten he was elected as a UKIP MEP and since quitting UKIP has remained an MEP... Hypocrite? It is quite ironic though. All of these MPs (from both Labour and Conservative) are disgruntled Remainers who never accepted the referendum result. They all stood and were elected on a Brexit manifesto though. They are squealing for a "People's Vote" but they have no intention of putting themselves through the same scrutiny, having done a 180 degree on the prime manifesto commitment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 They don't have to though, at least not until the next general election. They're not standing down or resigning their seats and why the hell would you put yourself through a by-election when you know that your ex-party is going to throw everything they've got at you. The Tories would do all they could to unseat Anna Soubry and would put the entire weight of the party behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I'm not sure it's right that leaving a party should trigger a by-election. People have to be allowed to follow their conscience. What happens if (as has happened with UKIP) the party leadership moves the party away from your beliefs. Could it be abused by parties so that rebelling against your party on one issue meant the withdrawal of the whip and a by-election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 They are not conviction politicians though. They are muddled thinking careerists who bend with the wind. Here is Umunna a couple of years ago telling people not to do what he is doing now. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-remain-campaigners-must-drop-calls-for-new-brexit-vote-a3410601.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Declan said: I'm not sure it's right that leaving a party should trigger a by-election. People have to be allowed to follow their conscience. What happens if (as has happened with UKIP) the party leadership moves the party away from your beliefs. Could it be abused by parties so that rebelling against your party on one issue meant the withdrawal of the whip and a by-election. Recognise the point, but if you have renounced the manifesto you stood on and were elected on? Particularly in a Leave constituency? Edited February 21, 2019 by woolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, woolley said: They are not conviction politicians though. They are muddled thinking careerists who bend with the wind. Here is Umunna a couple of years ago telling people not to do what he is doing now. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-remain-campaigners-must-drop-calls-for-new-brexit-vote-a3410601.html Sadly the days of principled politicians seems to be long gone, I’m struggling to think of any who aren’t in it for what they can get for themselves or their mates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, woolley said: Recognise the point, but if you have renounced the manifesto you stood on and were elected on? Particularly in a Leave constituency? Most of them are in Remain constituencies and the Labour manifesto was very woolley on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 If they were very "woolley" then presumably they'd be strongly leave? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, mojomonkey said: Sadly the days of principled politicians seems to be long gone, I’m struggling to think of any who aren’t in it for what they can get for themselves or their mates. I think most of them are principled. On all sides (Farage, Boris and Cameron being obvious recent exceptions). Otherwise they'd get better paid jobs in the city or public relations and not get dog's abuse on twitter. But politics is the art of the possible, they need to compromise to get anything done. It's easy for us to sit outside and list errors or even inconsistencies they've made because we never have to compromise any of our principles to achieve another. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, woolley said: ... the mess that was once the UK. I'm certainly not saying that. "the significantly but not dramatically poorer UK" is as worse as its probably going to get. But why take the risk. I'm glad we seem to agree there is an effect on FInancial Services though. You'd have to be a complete raving loon to try to argue against that one! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, woolley said: Recognise the point, but if you have renounced the manifesto you stood on and were elected on? Particularly in a Leave constituency? If you accept that an MP should represent their constituency then you also have to acknowledge the issues with first past the post. In most constituencies the majority of people voted against their MP but because these votes were split between other candidates you have a situation where the MP and/or theei party may not reflect the majority of the constituents beliefs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Declan said: Most of them are in Remain constituencies and the Labour manifesto was very woolley on the subject. 1 hour ago, mojomonkey said: If they were very "woolley" then presumably they'd be strongly leave? And so it was: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/01/it-s-time-accept-labour-manifesto-you-voted-promised-hard-brexit "But the Labour manifesto in 2017 was a hard Brexit manifesto. It promised to leave the European Union by “accepting the result”, and that “freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union”. By definition for freedom of movement to end, we will have to leave the single market, since, as the EU’s chief negotiator has observed, the four freedoms are indivisble. In the North of England and in the Midlands, as well as other parts of the country, voters flocked to Labour and supported our Brexit manifesto." Attempts are being made to rewrite history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: If you accept that an MP should represent their constituency then you also have to acknowledge the issues with first past the post. In most constituencies the majority of people voted against their MP but because these votes were split between other candidates you have a situation where the MP and/or theei party may not reflect the majority of the constituents beliefs.... Again, I understand that point. It is a bad system, but the best we have. There was also a referendum on proportional representation by the coalition government in 2011 which showed no appetite for it among the public. The ironic thing is that the main attribute of first past the post is that it is supposed to produce decisive election results and strong government, but neither have been apparent for the past decade. Strongly symptomatic of a nation at odds with itself, I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Declan said: Most of them are in Remain constituencies and the Labour manifesto was very woolley on the subject. 7/10 are in leave seats......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 On 1/28/2019 at 5:02 PM, John Wright said: Because under WTO we have to charge and collect the tarriffs, up to 30%, on imported goods. That includes from the EU and the 60 other countries with which, through the EU, we currently have FTA bilateral trade agreements. We can’t discriminate, pick and choose the tarriffs absent a Trade Agreement. That covers roughly 95% of UK import trade. At present we don’t need to do that quite as strictly, and for EU goods, and goods already in the EU, not at all. Or we could just not impose tarriffs on anything and not bother. I felt Ed Miliband’s Labour got that one wrong. Especially those now leaving to form in the TIG party. Could have been a centrist majority hold sway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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