woody2 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 21 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Okay, let me phrase that another way... 51% either do not know or do not believe that there should be a by-election. Those wanting a by-election are therefore in the minority. Personally, I find it interesting how many people believe that politicians should hold a by-election when one of the greatest politicians Britain had crossed the floor in 1904 and yet not one person seems to be arguing that a by-election should have occurred then. don't know= don't care= won't vote..... 22 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: The ballot paper clearly states that you are voting for a candidate. It is done as part of the election process and the people have voted and chosen their candidate so why should there be a second vote outside of a general election? Surely that is just anti-democratic and attempting to overturn the will of the people? mp's run on a manifesto...... if mp's start saying something different than they stood for at election they should face a vote...... you sound like heidi allen...... “We haven’t changed. What we stood on, our values, our own leaflets, our own campaigning when we stood in 2017, none of that has changed.” but her leaflet said..... “we must respect the democratic outcome of the referendum and work positively together to ensure we make Brexit a success.” also on twitter....... “I was a remainer, but the EU ref result is final and cannot be rerun.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, woody2 said: mp's run on a manifesto...... if mp's start saying something different than they stood for at election they should face a vote...... you sound like heidi allen...... “We haven’t changed. What we stood on, our values, our own leaflets, our own campaigning when we stood in 2017, none of that has changed.” but her leaflet said..... “we must respect the democratic outcome of the referendum and work positively together to ensure we make Brexit a success.” also on twitter....... “I was a remainer, but the EU ref result is final and cannot be rerun.” So... When the promises made by the leave campaign have been quietly dropped and the Government is not delivering the brexit that was promised surely by your own reasoning there should be a second vote? Or does this only apply where you do not like what is happening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Actually you do not have much democratic choice save for the independent candidates. The local party association sits and selects who they want to stand for MP in the party's name in that constituency. So a few Tory Colonels and ladies in big hats choose someone for you. Labour I suppose have their scruffy version of same. It is a little bit like the USSR. So you have little choice. An MP who quits the party or crosses the floor will probably not be selected for a by-election by the party that selected them before if they are against party policy. Maybe the deselected original candidate can get elected as an independent or chosen by another party. Probably a tame candidate will chosen by committee etc. Either way MPs cannot resign their seats once elected. They have to apply for an office of profit under the Crown such as Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds or somewhat ditto the Manor of Northsted. By-elections have to be moved in the Commons and by the Speaker issuing a writ to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery. Currently no chance mate.... Just what we need a load of by-elections.....I am not sure if multiple persons can apply for these posts of profit under the Crown if there be only two...So, more Brexit confusion. So not going to happen as the Speaker will not issue the writ to the Clerk and there will be no support in the House to move that writ into action and trigger a by-election. Too much aggro... This is how I recall it from my school days.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, woody2 said: don't know= don't care= won't vote..... mp's run on a manifesto...... if mp's start saying something different than they stood for at election they should face a vote...... you sound like heidi allen...... “We haven’t changed. What we stood on, our values, our own leaflets, our own campaigning when we stood in 2017, none of that has changed.” but her leaflet said..... “we must respect the democratic outcome of the referendum and work positively together to ensure we make Brexit a success.” also on twitter....... “I was a remainer, but the EU ref result is final and cannot be rerun.” MPs are not allowed to resign their seats once elected. They must apply for an office of profit under the Crown to disqualify themselves and cannot be made to do this. Also the Speaker must issue a writ and the House must vote to move it. No chance mate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: Okay, let me phrase that another way... 51% either do not know or do not believe that there should be a by-election. Those wanting a by-election are therefore in the minority. Personally, I find it interesting how many people believe that politicians should hold a by-election when one of the greatest politicians Britain had crossed the floor in 1904 and yet not one person seems to be arguing that a by-election should have occurred then. The ballot paper clearly states that you are voting for a candidate. It is done as part of the election process and the people have voted and chosen their candidate so why should there be a second vote outside of a general election? Surely that is just anti-democratic and attempting to overturn the will of the people? Yes, the principle here is that one way or another an MP has been chosen. Were that MP to resign they would be depriving people of the effect of their vote and of the election principle and so at a stroke negating the entire democratic process. It cannot be left to the successful candidate to decide whether they want drop out on a whim. Also the elected MP must take the oath of allegiance to the Crown before taking their seat so once elected the Crown must expect much from them although the Crown does not pay them directly. The Get of jail free card is to apply for an office of profit under the Crown. They do not get it but historically by even applying for a paid job under the Crown they show split loyalties as the Crown and its servants are barred from the Commons ie Door slammed in face of Blackrod... So they apply for Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds or Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead….Which are regarded as paid offices under the Crown..Thus they disqualify themselves and a by-election is moved. I suppose another method is to accept a peerage in the Lords as Lords are not able to sit in the Commons. Good way of kicking someone upstairs with a nice little earner..But not when Brexit stalks the corridors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 hours ago, manxman1980 said: So... When the promises made by the leave campaign have been quietly dropped and the Government is not delivering the brexit that was promised surely by your own reasoning there should be a second vote? Or does this only apply where you do not like what is happening? what promises have been dropped...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Barrie Stevens said: MPs are not allowed to resign their seats once elected. plenty do........ if the labour amendment goes through it will be up to parties..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 46 minutes ago, woody2 said: what promises have been dropped...... See how many of these have been delivered or look likely to be delivered. Maybe dropped is too strong a word as many like Jacob Rees-Mogg still believe that they can deliver on these even though reality appears to be different. 1. More money for the NHS (£100 million per week cash infusion). Didn't Nigel Farage run away from that claim on the day after the referendum result? 2. More money for farmers 3. More money for scientists 4. More money in your pocket (because we will not be undercut by uncontrolled immigration) 5. Scrapping VAT on fuels bills and tampons. Any idea why this cannot be done before we leave? 6. No short-term economic disruption. Hasn't JRM predicted 50 years before we see any real benefit? 7. Brand new trade deals all over the world (start negotiating immediately for them to come into force after brexit) How is that going? Only 4 or 5 so far aren't there? 8. No damage to trade with the EU. If May's deal is agreed then that is possible otherwise I am not so sure. 9. No obligation to follow EU law. Guess what? If you want to trade with the EU you have to conform to their product standards. 10. Cut immigration. Yes, we have made the UK a less desirable place to live. 11. Introduction of a new Australian-style points based immigration system. That is not ready yet either... 12. Stronger border controls (including preventative checks at the border) 13. BUT no border in Northern Ireland (the only land border with the EU). So we will have preventative checks but somehow not have a hard border in Northern Ireland or a border in the middle of the Irish Sea? Not sure how this will work because all an illegal immigrant needs to do is travel to the Republic of Ireland and walk into the UK. Once there they are in the common travel area and free to move around the UK unless of course there is a border check somewhere else... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 59 minutes ago, woody2 said: plenty do........ if the labour amendment goes through it will be up to parties..... Wonder why Labour have suddenly tabled that amendment? Could it be that they are concerned that the party is about to fall apart at the seams and see by-elections as a way in which they can have pro-Corbyn candidates elected? I am sure the Tory party will be in favour for the same reason. Both parties could be ruined by brexit and the extremists within them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 24 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: See how many of these have been delivered or look likely to be delivered. Maybe dropped is too strong a word as many like Jacob Rees-Mogg still believe that they can deliver on these even though reality appears to be different. 1. More money for the NHS (£100 million per week cash infusion). Didn't Nigel Farage run away from that claim on the day after the referendum result? 2. More money for farmers 3. More money for scientists 4. More money in your pocket (because we will not be undercut by uncontrolled immigration) 5. Scrapping VAT on fuels bills and tampons. Any idea why this cannot be done before we leave? 6. No short-term economic disruption. Hasn't JRM predicted 50 years before we see any real benefit? 7. Brand new trade deals all over the world (start negotiating immediately for them to come into force after brexit) How is that going? Only 4 or 5 so far aren't there? 8. No damage to trade with the EU. If May's deal is agreed then that is possible otherwise I am not so sure. 9. No obligation to follow EU law. Guess what? If you want to trade with the EU you have to conform to their product standards. 10. Cut immigration. Yes, we have made the UK a less desirable place to live. 11. Introduction of a new Australian-style points based immigration system. That is not ready yet either... 12. Stronger border controls (including preventative checks at the border) 13. BUT no border in Northern Ireland (the only land border with the EU). So we will have preventative checks but somehow not have a hard border in Northern Ireland or a border in the middle of the Irish Sea? Not sure how this will work because all an illegal immigrant needs to do is travel to the Republic of Ireland and walk into the UK. Once there they are in the common travel area and free to move around the UK unless of course there is a border check somewhere else... care to share the leaflet from the official campaign that claimed all this...... 13- checks happen now in ireland........nothing in the gfa stops the uk leaving on no deal........ may's agreement breaches the gfa.....ireland has to inform the uk who is entering the cta...... ireland is staying part of the cta......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 29 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Wonder why Labour have suddenly tabled that amendment? Could it be that they are concerned that the party is about to fall apart at the seams and see by-elections as a way in which they can have pro-Corbyn candidates elected? I am sure the Tory party will be in favour for the same reason. Both parties could be ruined by brexit and the extremists within them. do you really think people like fiona onasanya are fit to be an mp........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 hours ago, woody2 said: plenty do........ if the labour amendment goes through it will be up to parties..... An MP cannot be required to resign as such but they might agree to be a gentleman/lady and take one for the team so to speak and make room. Hence the reward in the House of Lords. The MP is not owned by the party. The MP belongs to the constituency as the representative. They are elected that is it. It is possible to petition for the recall an MP for serious impropriety under the 2015 Recall Act but that is much more complicated. Then of course there is bankruptcy, insanity and serving a prison sentence. An MP wanting to leave their seat must apply for a post of profit under the Crown. ie Chiltern Hundreds....Not many MPs give up their seats outside of a general election. As a rule, MPs do not resign as they are not allowed to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 56 minutes ago, woody2 said: do you really think people like fiona onasanya are fit to be an mp........ Not for us to choose. We just have to vote or not as the case may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 9 hours ago, woody2 said: Whoever put this in the media clearly does not understand that MPs cannot resign... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, Barrie Stevens said: Whoever put this in the media clearly does not understand that MPs cannot resign... https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2018/may/heidi-alexander-resigns-as-mp-for-lewisham-east-/ This link explains how it is done but think of the mess if many MPs at once applied for the Crown position...Yes, it is pedantic and dates back a few centuries but most people today imagine a sort of mass resignation of those stepping out of line over such as Brexit whereas the procedure is not really designed for that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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