Freggyragh Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 But it would be cruel to laugh at this small group of angry pensioners who paid £50, walked with Sir Nigel for half an hour before he deserted them to sit in a pub while they trundled on in the rain. The simpleton with the Manx flag though? Is he shading Sir Nigel’s tax arrangements? Protesting that he didn’t get a vote? Being ironic? Is he just lost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Freggyragh said: It’s not so much about skill as the hand you have. If I go shopping in Tesco, no matter how skilled a negotiator I am, I cannot haggle over prices. But when Tesco deal with their suppliers Tesco haggles, and usually wins. Do you understand how and why that might be the case? Switzerland and Norway are in Schengen, they have extensive deals with the E.U. - how are they ever going to agree better deals with the U.K. than the ones they have with the E.U.? The U.K. will never match the trade deals of the EU, no matter how skilled Fox and his team become. I understand the point, of course, but I think that there are higher principles at stake concerning self-determination of nations as I have posted ad nauseam, and won't repeat. For so many people this seems to go no further than trade, but trade is only a part of it. I believe that we can trust UK plc to deliver prosperity in spite of government, bureaucrats or any short term regulatory impediments. That is what usually happens anyway and if you want proof just look at the Isle of Man. There might be some short term retrenchment in gdp, but I'm not even convinced of that. Threats bring opportunity in all events and entrepreneurial innovation would flourish in the new situation. I think some people are wedded to the EU for reasons of an ideological or utopian belief in a union of nations into one. If they understand the implications and still believe in it then it's an honourable if misguided stance. If they have been brainwashed or are scared of the alternative then that is troubling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) Dup post. It's doing it again! Edited March 19, 2019 by woolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) Dup post. It's doing it again! Where is my stalker, by the way? Edited March 19, 2019 by woolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) Fair point. So good you posted thrice. But I don’t have any ideological or utopian beliefs. I just realised that all the arguments concerning brexit are based on outright lies or paranoid conspiracy theories, peddled by charlatans out for themselves. Edited March 19, 2019 by Freggyragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: Fair point. So good you posted thrice. But I don’t have any ideological or upturn beliefs. I just realised that all the arguments concerning brexit are based on outright lies or paranoid conspiracy theories, peddled by charlatans out for themselves. Ah yes. The forum has caught you out in the same way not too long ago Freggy, so don't go all superior on me for a multiple post. The rest of it is just not so, and I think you realise that. If the EU was simply a benign free trade area I would be all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) Just a gentle tease about the multiple posts - yes it’s happened to me too, easily done. I’ve asked you before, but I’ll ask again, what exactly is it that you don’t like about the EU? Can you give me a specific answer which is not conspiracy theory, a demonstable lie or pie in the sky speculation about what the E.U. might become in the future. Just one example will do. Edited March 19, 2019 by Freggyragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 32 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: Just a gentle tease about the multiple posts - yes it’s happened to me too, easily done. I’ve asked you before, but I’ll ask again, what exactly is it that you don’t like about the EU? Can you give me a specific answer which is not conspiracy theory, a demonstable lie or pie in the sky speculation about what the E.U. might become in the future. Just one example will do. I've answered you before but you don't like the answer. Everything about it that transcends the narrow remit of a free trade area and impinges on the prerogatives of nation states. For example, The European Parliament, The European Court of Justice, the multiple presidencies, the foreign representation and security malarkey, a la Baroness Ashton, the anthem, the flag, the euro. That is totally ignoring what it might become in the future, as per your request. I accept that none of this matters to you, but those who demur are entitled to a view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 4 hours ago, Freggyragh said: But so much better than the pathetic handful of deals that Fox has managed - who would have ever imagined a British politician allowing Switzerland, Iceland and Norway to dictate their own standards and regulations and much improved (for them) trading terms to the U.K., just so he’d have something to try and pass off as an achievement, well, him and his team of three junior ministers and 200 trade negotiators. freggy showing she doesn't understand wto trade deals again...... 1 hour ago, Freggyragh said: Fair point. So good you posted thrice. But I don’t have any ideological or utopian beliefs. I just realised that all the arguments concerning brexit are based on outright lies or paranoid conspiracy theories, peddled by charlatans out for themselves. that's you that is........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 are we going to see another lie exposed about the unelected eu....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Pretty much all of what impinges on the rights of states are consumer rights, workers rights, the health and safety of consumers and workers, and common standards and regulations - all things to regulate a free and fair market / trading block, and do away with the constant consumer and worker litigation you find in the US. Like it or not, these issues are not trading block issues, they are free trade agreement issues. That’s why Canada, Japan and the E.U. have all had to bring their GDPR laws into line. You can’t have free trade if the other country’s laws allow rival companies to misuse data that they should never have got their hands on. If the U.K. is going to carry on trade it is going to have to go along with international standards. It’s a crying shame that brexiters don’t want the U.K.to carry on having just about the biggest influence on the biggest market and have no say at all. If you’re going to have bureaucrats working on the technicalities, you need scrutiny, that’s why there’s a EU Parliament. It’s true some MEPs are never there and just use it for grandstanding and claiming expenses, but they are elected and other candidates, even dolphins, are available. When there are trade disputes you need a fair arbitration process. That’s why there is European Court of Justice. Trade deals always need agreed processes for complaints and remedies remedies. The presidencies are a bit over grandiose for the job description, but there is a need for a spokesperson, and foreign representation as although it is only a political union it is a very big one. There was nothing in the Lisbon Treaty to stop the U.K. sending troops to Afghanistan, but there is to prevent any EU member supporting any challenge to the geographical integrity of the U.K. - including Gibraltar and the Falklands. The Euro is a matter for the Eurozone. Nothing to do with the U.K. and if it fails the U.K. is now exempt from bailing anyone else out (unlike last time). I can’t stand the anthem either, I’ve never heard it played anywhere but at EU functions. The flag means nothing to me. Did someone make you stand for the E.U. anthem, or salute the flag? No, didn’t think so, but I’m suspicious you have some paranoid theory that it might happen. So, nothing substantial then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Freggyragh said: So, nothing substantial then? Not if all you are concerned about is trade. That is an awful lot of paraphernalia to try to hide under the fig leaf of what is required merely for trade. Admit it. It just doesn't wash. This is much more than a trading zone. Edited March 19, 2019 by woolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 On 3/14/2019 at 10:57 AM, mojomonkey said: Why is this objectionable? I suppose the EU could just give a straight forward "f*** you" and refuse an extension, thus forcing either an acceptance of May's deal or causing a hard exit. Rightly or wrongly, from the start the EU has held all the cards in the negotiations. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/19/brexit-uk-to-pay-health-costs-of-retired-britons-in-eu-if-no-deal-agreed Wonder if IOM Govt will have to pay up as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 13 minutes ago, Barrie Stevens said: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/19/brexit-uk-to-pay-health-costs-of-retired-britons-in-eu-if-no-deal-agreed Wonder if IOM Govt will have to pay up as well? UK probably wouldn't notice for a couple of decades as with the VAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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