So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[woolley]

1 hour ago, Non-Believer said:

Like our and the UK's bathing water, drinking water, air and emissions standards were, pre-EU? Britain used to be called the "dirty man of Europe" IIRC. Acid rain and all that.

Europe was pretty bad in those days too! 45 years ago is a different world.

[Non-Believer]

35 minutes ago, woolley said:

Europe was pretty bad in those days too! 45 years ago is a different world.

Why was it 45 years ago? Do you think that UK would have improved of its own volition?

Europe pulled the UK's standards up by its bootstraps. The UK was obliged to and in some cases still can't meet the standards (and neither can IoM). But there's nothing wrong with aiming high and coercing compliance.

There's a cross section of the Brexit mob that wouldn't give a damn as long as they were getting wealthy out of turning the country back into Smog Central.

[woolley]

37 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Why was it 45 years ago? Do you think that UK would have improved of its own volition?

Europe pulled the UK's standards up by its bootstraps. The UK was obliged to and in some cases still can't meet the standards (and neither can IoM). But there's nothing wrong with aiming high and coercing compliance.

There's a cross section of the Brexit mob that wouldn't give a damn as long as they were getting wealthy out of turning the country back into Smog Central.

That is ridiculous. Of COURSE it would have done so. It already was doing so as much of the early legislation, Clean Air Acts etc. predate membership of the EU. Plenty of non-compliance around Europe and where things have improved, much of the finance has been from British taxpayers. Perhaps you would prefer to be totally governed by Brussels in a United States of Europe? There are certainly enough people around here who see the UK as totally unable to manage its own affairs.

https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/dashboards/air-quality-statistics

Edited May 26, 2019 by woolley

[finlo]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

And the sick man of Europe for its poor productivity, low out put, stop go economy, lower than G5, G7 or EEC growth ( long term trend ), constant sterling crises, balance of payment crises, £50 limit on taking sterling abroad, constant strikes, poor quality, three day weeks, power cuts.

That has Labour government written all over it!

[woolley]

3 minutes ago, finlo said:

That has Labour government written all over it!

Hasn't it just!

[Non-Believer]

27 minutes ago, woolley said:

There are certainly enough people around here who see the UK as totally unable to manage its own affairs

Well, given the last 3 years......

[woolley]

1 minute ago, Non-Believer said:

Well, given the last 3 years......

So you do believe that the country is better run from elsewhere? This is not something to be glib about.

[Non-Believer]

1 minute ago, woolley said:

So you do believe that the country is better run from elsewhere? This is not something to be glib about.

I do believe that UK is and always has been run by overwhelming establishment self interest, regardless of the Govt of the day. That is now rebelling out of panic against EU standards (for example the EU tax avoidance directive that would have major implications for big players in UK).

I've lived and worked in northern Europe. It saddens me when I return to UK and see the lack of pride in our environment and what we have. Why didn't elsewhere in Europe get the reputation that UK had re "sick man"?

You don't see old fridges and cars lobbed down railway embankments in Germany or Switzerland for example. It's born of poverty and class divide that's existed in the UK since the middle ages. And some would wish to continue that in their own interest.

[woolley]

9 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

I do believe that UK is and always has been run by overwhelming establishment self interest, regardless of the Govt of the day. That is now rebelling out of panic against EU standards (for example the EU tax avoidance directive that would have major implications for big players in UK).

I've lived and worked in northern Europe. It saddens me when I return to UK and see the lack of pride in our environment and what we have. Why didn't elsewhere in Europe get the reputation that UK had re "sick man"?

You don't see old fridges and cars lobbed down railway embankments in Germany or Switzerland for example. It's born of poverty and class divide that's existed in the UK since the middle ages. And some would wish to continue that in their own interest.

I accept that you don't see much fly tipping in Germany or Switzerland, but there is plenty in France, Italy and Spain etc. It's a scourge of course, but not really an EU issue. Even if it was an EU issue, the EU has not cured it anywhere. It's born of a total lack of any civic pride rather than poverty. The "sick man" thing was an industrial strife reputation bequeathed to the country by communist union leaders. It took Thatcher to cure that.

It still looks as though you would prefer the country to be run by a continental institution rather than manage its own affairs and that is a seam which appears to run through the Remain contingent in general. This is very concerning for the future.

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

And the sick man of Europe for its poor productivity, low out put, stop go economy, lower than G5, G7 or EEC growth ( long term trend ), constant sterling crises, balance of payment crises, £50 limit on taking sterling abroad, constant strikes, poor quality, three day weeks, power cuts.

All true.

But we won the World Cup beating Germany in the final.

So not all bad.....

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, woolley said:

So you do believe that the country is better run from elsewhere? This is not something to be glib about.

But it hasn’t been run from elsewhere. A very small amount of law is EU generated, and the U.K. is democratically involved in that.

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, finlo said:

That has Labour government written all over it!

It was the trend from 1945. In the 38 years between the end of WW2 and accession to the EEC Tories were in power for 16 years compared to 12 for Labour.

The problems were a U.K. malaise, despite greater Marshall Aid than Germany, neither party could get the economy to grow consistently or at anything approaching European rates.

[P.K.]

7 minutes ago, John Wright said:

But it hasn’t been run from elsewhere. A very small amount of law is EU generated, and the U.K. is democratically involved in that.

Ahem....

On 2/6/2019 at 9:27 AM, P.K. said:

You (Woolster) keep coming up with this as an excuse for your hatred of all things EU.

As you rightly say there are various forces at play here. So-called "strictures" of the EU, globalisation of course etc etc but you seem to conveniently forget their own sovereign governments. If we take the UK as an example the "sovereignty" card much beloved by Brexiteers everywhere is, of course, a complete and utter nonsense. Farage et al were claiming that something like 75% of UK legislation was due to falling in line with EU "policies" but the HoC Library produced the figures that showed it was a mere 13% and it was nothing to do with "policies" at all. Rather it was about food standards and so forth such as "you can't use these damaging pesticides", "you can't use these hormones",  "shipping containers should be this size and design", "provenance must be available", " no gm" etc etc.

Just more brexit lies....

Amen to that.

"Sovereignty" - what a joke that is....

[P.K.]

I was appalled to see Tommy Robinson (Stephen Yaxley-Lennon) on the ballot paper.

Stayed up to see him come near the bottom of the list.

But people like him shouldn't be on the list in the first place....

ETA : Unbelievably 38,908 deluded souls DID vote for him. Shameful....

Edited May 26, 2019 by P.K.

[Non-Believer]

52 minutes ago, woolley said:

I accept that you don't see much fly tipping in Germany or Switzerland, but there is plenty in France, Italy and Spain etc. It's a scourge of course, but not really an EU issue. Even if it was an EU issue, the EU has not cured it anywhere. It's born of a total lack of any civic pride rather than poverty. The "sick man" thing was an industrial strife reputation bequeathed to the country by communist union leaders. It took Thatcher to cure that.

It still looks as though you would prefer the country to be run by a continental institution rather than manage its own affairs and that is a seam which appears to run through the Remain contingent in general. This is very concerning for the future.

The Conservatives have just seen their 4th Prime Minister dismissed over their infighting and internal interests over Europe.

That surely makes them as unfit to govern as Labour under Corbyn. At least Blair, pre Iraq that we were dragged into on the coat tails of American paranoia and insulism, managed to unite the country.

I was in the UK at the time of the '97 Election results, it was pure euphoria, which hadn't been seen since Thatcher in '79. I didn't see anybody protesting about Europe then. Because the Conservative infighting didn't exist to whip it up. The masses are easily led.

The country will now be swept up by Farage and the splinter freaks who will take full advantage of the playing field vacated by May and Corbyn, exploiting small minds and the Little Britain attitudes who haven't had the EU plusses explained to them. Just the £350M bus.