P.K. Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, woolley said: No. They resigned because they were swimming in treacle among the remainers in their own team. Like playing football in a team where half of your teammates are working against you. I did post that under the circumstances (i.e, being negotiated by remainers) it was the best we were going to see. On balance I would have taken it at the time, yes, and then move on the the future relationship. So you know that all those on the negotiation team were remainers then? Yeah. Right. I think someone is suffering from an overdose of Daily Wail.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, P.K. said: I think someone is suffering from an overdose of Daily Wail.... Check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Dear me. It just doesn't get any more desperate than this. I mean, The Daily Wail.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, woolley said: It's a state of mind that has been cultivated in the young. It grew in universities as far back as the 60s, so it's been around for far longer than the populists. It came out of university and assumed positions of influence within politics, judiciary and the media and so had the apparatus of state, courts and the broadcast media largely at its disposal for 50 years. The agenda is viewed by proponents as progressive - whatever that means - and right and it brooks no denial. Anyone who demurs is regressive, old fashioned and a dinosaur. Cultivated in the young by whom? Presumably the previous generations who had seen a world torn apart by war and hatred. People who thought that there was a better way of doing things that did not involve genocide, world war, nuclear weapons, suicide attacks and the loss of so many innocent lives. I do not have a problem with patriotism and being proud of where you are from. I personally am a very proud Manxman but I do not believe that makes worthy of any special treatment and as a white professional male I do not feel that I am being discriminated against or victimised by other people who, for whatever reasons, are different from me and want to have the same opportunities I had in life. I do have an issue with politicians who are out for themselves, the wealthy who seek to exploit the poor through modern slavery, low wages, long hours and those who would seek to profit from the privatisation of public services, those who would cut funding for public services which allow people the opportunity to try and better themselves (schools and libraries for instance). FFS you are making me sound like a Labour supporter! We have a generation now who are being denied the opportunities that many people of the previous generation had. It is now much harder to buy a first home, house prices are now much more than the average salary and the banks are not as free with their lending as they once were. I do not expect that I will receive a state pension - it will either have been abolished or the age will have been lifted so high I might be dead before I become entitled to it. Even with all the advantages of birth that I have had I am still renting - when I did own a property I was lucky to break even on it when I sold it and I could not afford a deposit on another property. Yet even with all that you will probably tell me I am part of the liberal elite or have fallen for their messages... @quilp Do you think she realised that she was/is a politician when she made that speech? The point that I have been trying to make is that terms like "liberal elite", "brexit means brexit", "hard brexit" etc etc are just empty soundbites. They mean nothing but people are attaching a meaning to them which is entirely dependant upon their own world view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: @quilp Do you think she realised that she was/is a politician when she made that speech? The point that I have been trying to make is that terms like "liberal elite", "brexit means brexit", "hard brexit" etc etc are just empty soundbites. They mean nothing but people are attaching a meaning to them which is entirely dependant upon their own world view. Can't say I'm picking up on what it is you're trying to convey in your first paragraph. As a question it just seems a bit vague, and perhaps pointless. Maybe it was something May felt needed to be said. And she was correct in saying it. I'm sure you'd agree that such politically-powerful influences exist and perhaps she's attempting to spread the blame for the disgraceful performance of her government over Brexit to other, shadowy groups (left, right and centre and obviously from within her own government/party) intent on bringing it all down. It probably accounts for the procrastination and delay we've seen and the fact we've just passed the 3rd anniversary of the vote and the UK is still no further forward on deal or no deal. I agree almost entirely with your last paragraph. 'Elites' exist in all colours and persuasion whether they be Liberals, Tories, Socialists or Internationalists/Globalists, et al, dependent as you say, on their own world view and vested ideological interest. And they certainly can be a powerful and influential concern, as May is claiming, so they can't be ignored nor their existence denied. I can't help finding it funny that there have appeared in recent articles of various publications and online media, stories from people who claim they're proud to be (at least they perceive themselves as) one of the 'elite' and see nothing wrong with it. They usually consider their elitism and self-worth in terms of materialism, money; the product of their "drive" and "hard work." A bit like the fulsome yuppies of the 80's and almost diluting the definition. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 (edited) When I left school in the eighties I was really lucky to find work as a manual worker. After a few years I travelled the world, made some proper money and was able to study a bit. In financial terms I am in a better place now than most. When it comes to work, I’ve always found that being honest and sincere in my work has paid off, and I have no time for bluffers, shysters, racists, or gobshites of whatever persuasion. That’s why I answer the lies of brexit on here, but Corbyn is absolutely cut from the same cloth - like Johnson, he believes in himself more than he believes in our futures (which, of course, he never even thinks of). I can’t stand politicians of almost any persuasion, although I think most of ours (yes, I know some are jaw-droppingly thick) are decent people. If the Daily Mail tells you that all this makes me a member of the Liberal Elite, then you really are brainwashed and can’t be helped. Edited June 25, 2019 by Freggyragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-model-bus-brexit-family-tory-leadership-jeremy-hunt-a8974276.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: When I left school in the eighties I was really lucky to find work as a manual worker. After a few years I travelled the world, made some proper money and was able to study a bit. In financial terms I am in a better place now than most. When it comes to work, I’ve always found that being honest and sincere in my work has paid off, and I have no time for bluffers, shysters, racists, or gobshites of whatever persuasion. That’s why I answer the lies of brexit on here, but Corbyn is absolutely cut from the same cloth - like Johnson, he believes in himself more than he believes in our futures (which, of course, he never even thinks of). I can’t stand politicians of almost any persuasion, although I think most of ours (yes, I know some are jaw-droppingly thick) are decent people. If the Daily Mail tells you that all this makes me a member of the Liberal Elite, then you really are brainwashed and can’t be helped. I concur with what you say regarding honesty and sincerity in business. It counts for a great deal, and people everywhere respond to it. Obviously agree about Johnson and Corbyn too. Of course you are not a member of the liberal elite, but like so many others you are a bag carrier for it as illustrated by your constant one-sided references to "lies of Brexit" etc. What about lies of Remain, Project Fear, planes won't fly etc, etc? I'll never understand this fixation that people on the left seem to have with the Daily Mail. I'm sure you are crediting it with far more influence than it has in reality, with a circulation of under 1.2 million. I last looked at it when I was 12 and that was only for Fred Basset, Tiffany Jones and the football reports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 26 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-model-bus-brexit-family-tory-leadership-jeremy-hunt-a8974276.html He's been on more women in his life than buses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 minute ago, woolley said: I concur with what you say regarding honesty and sincerity in business. It counts for a great deal, and people everywhere respond to it. Obviously agree about Johnson and Corbyn too. Of course you are not a member of the liberal elite, but like so many others you are a bag carrier for it as illustrated by your constant one-sided references to "lies of Brexit" etc. What about lies of Remain, Project Fear, planes won't fly etc, etc? I'll never understand this fixation that people on the left seem to have with the Daily Mail. I'm sure you are crediting it with far more influence than it has in reality, with a circulation of under 1.2 million. I last looked at it when I was 12 and that was only for Fred Basset, Tiffany Jones and the football reports. The "lies of remain" had a kernal of truth in them called international regulations. The "lies of brexit" were pure bollox. A "bag carrier for the liberal elite" indeed - that's exactly the kind of brexit bollox I'm talking about. Who writes your stuff, Paul Dacre? Laughable! It's so piss-poor and ridiculous I'm going to chuckle about the "bag carrier" for some time to come. Thanks for that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, woolley said: I concur with what you say regarding honesty and sincerity in business. It counts for a great deal, and people everywhere respond to it. Obviously agree about Johnson and Corbyn too. Of course you are not a member of the liberal elite, but like so many others you are a bag carrier for it as illustrated by your constant one-sided references to "lies of Brexit" etc. What about lies of Remain, Project Fear, planes won't fly etc, etc? I'll never understand this fixation that people on the left seem to have with the Daily Mail. I'm sure you are crediting it with far more influence than it has in reality, with a circulation of under 1.2 million. I last looked at it when I was 12 and that was only for Fred Basset, Tiffany Jones and the football reports. If the claims made during the referendum were true then brexit would have happened three years ago. Each time the gobshites have to face reality there’s delay, resignation and can kicking. It was sold on a pack of lies and blaming the failures of brexiteers on remainers makes you look like a brainwashed cult member. Edited June 25, 2019 by Freggyragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, P.K. said: The "lies of remain" had a kernal of truth in them called international regulations. The "lies of brexit" were pure bollox. A "bag carrier for the liberal elite" indeed - that's exactly the kind of brexit bollox I'm talking about. Who writes your stuff, Paul Dacre? Laughable! It's so piss-poor and ridiculous I'm going to chuckle about the "bag carrier" for some time to come. Thanks for that.... Welcome. Don't mention it. Project Fear had no truth in it at all. Remember the instant recession we were going to have the day after the vote? The mass unemployment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 How’s your bollocks squeezing analogy going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: If the claims made during the referendum were true then brexit would have happened three years ago. Each time the gobshites have to face reality there’s delay, resignation and can kicking. It was sold on a pack of lies and blaming the failures of brexiteers on remainers makes you look like a brainwashed cult member. You cannot deny the facts. Never once has the UK negotiation team challenged the basic tenets of the EU position. They have danced to Brussels' tune right down the line. You lot (and they) simply accept the arbitrary EU stated lines in the sand as immovable gospel, as do the BBC, saying such things as: "Well the EU have said they are not going to do....... (whatever it is)." and this is simply accepted as the last word on the matter. It is alien to anyone who has ever been involved in a serious negotiation. Not surprising of course, because you (and they) are supporters of the EU and its agenda. Edited June 25, 2019 by woolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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