woolley Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 On 7/20/2019 at 7:04 PM, Freggyragh said: Interesting points. I’m a bit concerned about this ‘mission creep’ - concerned that you might have been reading Boris Johnson kipper tales. Care to share your concerns. As ever, one example will do. I have tried to avoid the blatherings of Johnson, but if he becomes PM I suppose I shan't be able to. For a tiny moment, I thought you were starting to understand what I've been getting at all this time. You don't see mission creep and you need me to give examples? From the Coal and Steel Community of 1950 to the Union of today? Really? I don't believe that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 31 minutes ago, P.K. said: It would appear that the lies, like "the easiest trade deals in history" - are starting to come up against reality. That's the reality the brexiteers like to label "Project Fear" in the hope it will give the impression it's not true.... Ministers admit almost 65 existing trade deals with non-EU countries are ‘at risk because of Brexit’ https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-deals-lost-eu-liam-fox-caroline-lucas-theresa-may-latest-a8201596.html 18 month old article. Keep up at the back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 hours ago, woolley said: I have tried to avoid the blatherings of Johnson, but if he becomes PM I suppose I shan't be able to. For a tiny moment, I thought you were starting to understand what I've been getting at all this time. You don't see mission creep and you need me to give examples? From the Coal and Steel Community of 1950 to the Union of today? Really? I don't believe that. Just one and only one directive that you think should not apply to the U.K. Go ahead, pick one - you must have some to choose from, but I’m only asking for one. Again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Freggyragh said: Just one and only one directive that you think should not apply to the U.K. Go ahead, pick one - you must have some to choose from, but I’m only asking for one. Again. You don't get it at all. Again. You nearly did when you said that taxation policy should be set within sovereign states, but now you have slid back - again. If I don't agree with the principle of setting policy and law at a supranational level, it follows that I believe all such policy and law should be set by sovereign states and passed by their own legislatures. Consequently, no EU law or directive should apply to the UK and, preferably at some point in the future, no EU law should apply to any sovereign state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Do you believe in supranational agreements on climate change, OECD international tax information exchange agreements, NATO and its defence commitments, WTO trade regs etc, etc? Or is it just EU regulations to enhance the fair working of its single market that upsets you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, woolley said: You don't get it at all. Again. You nearly did when you said that taxation policy should be set within sovereign states, but now you have slid back - again. If I don't agree with the principle of setting policy and law at a supranational level, it follows that I believe all such policy and law should be set by sovereign states and passed by their own legislatures. Consequently, no EU law or directive should apply to the UK and, preferably at some point in the future, no EU law should apply to any sovereign state. Like putting plastic ice pillows into kipper packaging presumably? The hackneyed and soundly and roundly debunked illusory "sovereignty" card has been played time and again and anyone with even a modicum of intelligence should be able to see it for the nonsense it really is.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 21 minutes ago, P.K. said: Like putting plastic ice pillows into kipper packaging presumably? The hackneyed and soundly and roundly debunked illusory "sovereignty" card has been played time and again and anyone with even a modicum of intelligence should be able to see it for the nonsense it really is.... Unless you don't even understand it. The EU is a political project first and foremost which is proven by its refusal to sort out WA and FR arrangements simultaneously. It's like I say that I don't believe in God, but you then keep asking me which of God's wonderful miracles I actually object to. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 hours ago, woolley said: Unless you don't even understand it. The EU is a political project first and foremost which is proven by its refusal to sort out WA and FR arrangements simultaneously. It's like I say that I don't believe in God, but you then keep asking me which of God's wonderful miracles I actually object to. FR arrangements? How does the EU's preferred schedule "prove" it's first and foremost a political project and not the best trading bloc on the planet....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 On 7/22/2019 at 4:19 PM, Freggyragh said: Do you believe in supranational agreements on climate change, OECD international tax information exchange agreements, NATO and its defence commitments, WTO trade regs etc, etc? Or is it just EU regulations to enhance the fair working of its single market that upsets you? climate change: no. (because it's not gonna happen). OECD international tax information exchange agreements: yes (but they need to be evenhanded to everyone). NATO and its defence commitments: yes (if only other European nations did so too). WTO trade regs etc: yes. In other words, any multi-lateral treaty that is signed up to by a sovereign nation acting independently. The difference is that these are not imposed from above. They are entered into by states individually and not by a bloc on behalf of subordinate states. The EU is not ALL about the workings of the single market. If it was then perhaps that would not be so bad, but it is so much more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 On 7/22/2019 at 6:57 PM, P.K. said: FR arrangements? How does the EU's preferred schedule "prove" it's first and foremost a political project and not the best trading bloc on the planet....? It proves the point by insisting on this schedule rather than looking to its members future prosperity by settling the final arrangement, which would be in the interests of continued trade and is the blindingly obvious best thing to do for everyone involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, woolley said: It proves the point by insisting on this schedule rather than looking to its members future prosperity by settling the final arrangement, which would be in the interests of continued trade and is the blindingly obvious best thing to do for everyone involved. If someone who for years has spouted the same awful hairy sphericals about you and your organisation like Rees-Mogg, Raab, Fysh, Johnson, Gove, Farage, Duncan-Smith, Martin, Francois, Fox etc etc also owed you £39 bn what would your opening gambit on a future relationship be? Bearing in mind that we opted to leave them, not the other way around.... Their schedule makes perfect sense to me. So your "opinion" above proves nothing. Zip, zilch, zero, nada.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, P.K. said: So your "opinion" above proves nothing. Zip, zilch, zero, nada.... Except that it's a fact. The fragile sensibilities of Brussels apparatchiks should come a very long way behind the future business interests of their members' populations. Someone needs to tell them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Give it up Woolster. We chose to leave them. So it's a bit rich a brexiteer like you claiming that the EU should put a trading relationship with the UK to the top of the pile. That's what happens. You leave an organisation = no say in how it runs itself. Still, I'm sure a hugely respected and experienced negotiator like Boris Johnson will get it sorted PDQ. Isn't that right....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 19 minutes ago, P.K. said: Give it up Woolster. We chose to leave them. So it's a bit rich a brexiteer like you claiming that the EU should put a trading relationship with the UK to the top of the pile. That's what happens. You leave an organisation = no say in how it runs itself. Still, I'm sure a hugely respected and experienced negotiator like Boris Johnson will get it sorted PDQ. Isn't that right....? They should do so in the interests of their members, not the UK. Trade is a two way street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 And yet, only a few posts back you were arguing that parties to an agreement should never have to make compromises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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