woolley Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, P.K. said: Not with the medication anyway.... Never taken any. Unless you include the very odd glass of vino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, Barrie Stevens said: The peace accord Good Friday etc is seen very much as an Irish American baby...Boston Mass in particular is protective.. Apparently Boris wants the Backstop to go...Irish America says no.. Also such is the sentiment that no trade deal with the USA will be forthcoming if the Peace and Backstop are threatened. In Washington they say that come what may any deal will take 5 to 6 years and if UK plays silly beggars with the border there will be no deal at all. The border issue has been overplayed all along. Nobody is planning a hard border. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, woolley said: Of course, they don't mention that a trading arrangement is as imperative for EU countries as it is for the UK, if not more so. Tariffs cut both ways and they export more goods to us than vice versa. They don't want to lose those sales under any circumstances. Why would they? The only reason that they have looked united on this for more than three years is that their starting position in the negotiation has never been challenged. Under such circumstances, it has been easy for them to hold the line between the 27. And of course, the 27 to 1 ratio is extremely misleading. The UK is nearer to an eighth of the current total EU population and a seventh of the current total EU gdp (pre-Brexit). That is a more accurate assessment of the numbers. As for the break up of the union, well, what will be will be. I happen to think that most people in the UK outside of England know which side their bread is buttered, but time will tell. Whatever happens, it would be better for the union to be broken up from within than dismantled within the coming United States of Europe under "ever closer union". Even if Article 50 were revoked tomorrow, do you think nationalist forces are going to be satisfied? Of course not. You make me laugh! The reason the EU's position has not changed is because it will not agree to provide the UK with access to the common market whilst allowing the UK to remove regulatory alignment, ending freedom of movement etc. The UK has sought to have all the benefits of EU membership whilst also not being a member and not having to obey the rules. Can you think of any other organisation that you provides benefits to non-members or to those who have not paid for them in some way? I can't wait for the solution to be the so called Norwegian model and then see Farage et al squirm on the hook as the UK will have to pay for membership and remain aligned with EU regulations whilst having no right to vote on the regulations or influence them in anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, woolley said: Of course, they don't mention that a trading arrangement is as imperative for EU countries as it is for the UK, if not more so. Tariffs cut both ways and they export more goods to us than vice versa. They don't want to lose those sales under any circumstances. Why would they? The only reason that they have looked united on this for more than three years is that their starting position in the negotiation has never been challenged. Under such circumstances, it has been easy for them to hold the line between the 27. And of course, the 27 to 1 ratio is extremely misleading. The UK is nearer to an eighth of the current total EU population and a seventh of the current total EU gdp (pre-Brexit). That is a more accurate assessment of the numbers. As for the break up of the union, well, what will be will be. I happen to think that most people in the UK outside of England know which side their bread is buttered, but time will tell. Whatever happens, it would be better for the union to be broken up from within than dismantled within the coming United States of Europe under "ever closer union". Even if Article 50 were revoked tomorrow, do you think nationalist forces are going to be satisfied? Of course not. You know I think it has gone way beyond the trade in goods and services and who buys what from who etc. I think it is down to stubborn principles. You leave then go we are not changing our EU position. I hear the sound of breaking crockery and it is not Bojo's lady throwing it..I think we will not cave in and neither will the EU nor the USA...Gone beyond that now we shall just have to wait and see and get on with what transpires....No one can say anything for certain from now on.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, woolley said: The border issue has been overplayed all along. Nobody is planning a hard border. Boris seems to be upsetting a lot of people on the issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 You know I get the impression that a lot of younger people rather fancy a united states of Europe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: You make me laugh! The reason the EU's position has not changed is because it will not agree to provide the UK with access to the common market whilst allowing the UK to remove regulatory alignment, ending freedom of movement etc. The UK has sought to have all the benefits of EU membership whilst also not being a member and not having to obey the rules. Can you think of any other organisation that you provides benefits to non-members or to those who have not paid for them in some way? I can't wait for the solution to be the so called Norwegian model and then see Farage et al squirm on the hook as the UK will have to pay for membership and remain aligned with EU regulations whilst having no right to vote on the regulations or influence them in anyway. Canada style FTA was offered early on by EU. No need for membership "benefits". Just a trading arrangement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, woolley said: Canada style FTA was offered early on by EU. No need for membership "benefits". Just a trading arrangement. Source please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Barrie Stevens said: You know I get the impression that a lot of younger people rather fancy a united states of Europe... Only the ones who know nothing about anything. Can you imagine? Pan-continental civil war within a decade. On the other hand, it would lance the boil that's been fifty years in the making. Too horrible to contemplate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Source please? Any number of them. Common knowledge. https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/donald-tusk-says-a-canada-style-brexit-deal-is-still-on-the-table-after-varadkar-meeting-873655.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 8 minutes ago, woolley said: Any number of them. Common knowledge. https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/donald-tusk-says-a-canada-style-brexit-deal-is-still-on-the-table-after-varadkar-meeting-873655.html Thank you. That was not a dig, it was a genuine question. Interesting that now we have BoJo and JRM in senior positions that this has not been discussed in any detail again. I suspect that the Canada+++ must have conflicted with some of Theresa May's redlines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Thank you. That was not a dig, it was a genuine question. Interesting that now we have BoJo and JRM in senior positions that this has not been discussed in any detail again. I suspect that the Canada+++ must have conflicted with some of Theresa May's redlines? Interesting point. Of course, we are not at all sure who was driving the agenda behind the scenes on the UK side. This was what provoked Davis and Johnson to resign after Chequers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 Ah me. Back to the serious stuff: 2 hours ago, woolley said: More non-news from the moaning Grauniad. Seeing as everyone has said that there will be no physical infrastructure or inspections at the border where is the "oh dear"? There will be a solution on trading arrangements because it is in everybody's interests, including all EU states, for that to happen. It's the panicking idiots who are the biggest obstacle to the solution. So this is the "official" meaning of the backstop: "The backstop is a guarantee that whatever happens during the negotiations between the EU and UK on the future relationship, the open border between Ireland and Northern Ireland will be maintained, and the Good Friday Agreement respected." The Woolster may remember this that I posted up a while back. This was when the likes of the ERG and especially Rees-Mogg's rotund fag Mark Francois and his permanent smirk were just skating over the backstop as if it was a meaningless soundbite that could be safely ignored as per Woolley's post above. This prompted a guy to ring James O'Brian at LBC from County Mayo not far from the border to remind at least the LBC listeners of the terrible price that has already been paid in the dark days they never want to return. In other words the backstop may not be important in London, but it should be as the recent past can testify: On 1/23/2019 at 6:16 PM, P.K. said: You need to listen to this to the end. If you can. https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obriens-caller-brexit-good-friday-agreement/ It elicited this response: On 1/23/2019 at 6:31 PM, woolley said: Last refuge of the desperate to be whipping this up and invoking such fears in people so that they can cling on to the EU and thwart the referendum. That's what it's about because UK and Ireland have said no way will a hard border return. Despicable. A somewhat lack of humanity there... This is the sort-of exercise that has been going on recently: Boris - We want to remove the Backstop from any WA. EU - But YOU asked for it to be included. What do you want to replace it with? Boris - We have no idea. But take it out. EU - So give us an alternative. Boris - No! Stop trying to bully us! This part of Woolley's response is quite illuminating "Last refuge of the desperate to be whipping this up and invoking such fears in people so that they can cling on to the EU and thwart the referendum." Nobody forced Martin (I think) from County Mayo to ring LBC out of the blue. It certainly wasn't, in fact can't be, some kind of desperate attempt to thwart the referendum. It was just one guy who had been through a terrible time and was concerned that it was being forgotten in Westminster, which it certainly was. Now bearing in mind the UK's current Prime Minister is an amoral, narcissistic, serial philanderer and inveterate liar would you deem a response like this to be acceptable: "Seeing as everyone has said that there will be no physical infrastructure or inspections at the border where is the "oh dear"? There will be a solution on trading arrangements because it is in everybody's interests, including all EU states, for that to happen." Everyone has said? I think you'll find the UK PM wants the Backstop caveat removed. Would YOU trust Boris Johnson? Sorry, rhetorical question..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/31/johnson-sends-ditch-the-backstop-message-to-eu-via-brexit-adviser Just saying like.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIchard Britten Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 15 hours ago, woolley said: Only the ones who know nothing about anything. Can you imagine? Pan-continental civil war within a decade. On the other hand, it would lance the boil that's been fifty years in the making. Too horrible to contemplate. Its not like you to be uber condescending and patronising to young people... But then you are the "expert". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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