So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[woolley]

1 hour ago, pongo said:

It makes no technical sense the Euro zone countries not having unified fiscal policy given that they already have unified monetary policy. Fiscal policy (taxation, spending etc) needs to be managed centrally - it's fundamental to the stability of the currency. The same as monetary policy. Between them they determine money supply. However measured.

Obviously this would not have affected non Euro zone countries such as the UK. The UK would always have been outside of the inevitable federal model.

It's a machine that rolls on. Impediments are considered temporary. It's a long game. No rush. They have a currency and a central bank. Not everyone is in it. Not everyone is in Schengen. But the EU is patient. Despite the fact that it's like herding cats, it thinks it will get there in the end. So why be a part of that? Just a free trade zone between sovereign European states would be fine. No bells and whistles.

[Declan]

3 hours ago, woolley said:

Well certainly not nothing at all. It is in their interest to sort it. 

The onus is surely on Boris to set out what the hell he wants. 

[Max Power]

1 hour ago, pongo said:

It makes no technical sense the Euro zone countries not having unified fiscal policy given that they already have unified monetary policy. Fiscal policy (taxation, spending etc) needs to be managed centrally - it's fundamental to the stability of the currency. The same as monetary policy. Between them they determine money supply. However measured.

Obviously this would not have affected non Euro zone countries such as the UK. The UK would always have been outside of the inevitable federal model.

In the EU publication I posted earlier in the thread, the stated aim is for all members to be in the Euro, including the UK, to facilitate just what you suggest. They declare that they know that there would be resistance but their aims are long term and will ride out that resistance.

[woolley]

It isn't hard to understand is it? Such complacency. It comes from the last time we faced an existential threat having almost receded from living memory. They don't all come with bombs and guns. Our problem is that we don't recognise threats anymore. We are blase about our freedom because it's always been there.

[P.K.]

6 hours ago, Max Power said:

That one statement sums up what the EU thinks of Britain. "Why can negotiations not be reopened? Because we say so, that's why!" Do they not think for one minute that they, by their intransigent attitude, have helped to sway public opinion away from the EU? 

 

5 hours ago, woolley said:

Max. I'm afraid the brethren here have cloth ears to anything as complex and intelligent as this. It's just a trading bloc, don't you know. 

This isn't rocket science.

Narcissistic serial philanderer and inveterate liar Boris Johnson has told the EU that the backstop must be put aside before further negotiations can proceed. The EU, reinforced by the words of Leo Varadkar who has something of a vested interest in this, have always stood by the correct position that the backstop is part of the International Treaty known as the GFA and as such is immutable.

You know I'm absolutely amazed that Farage, Gove, Johnson, The Daily Wail, The Torygraph, The Excess and the Just Tits and Bum Sun didn't mention this in the run up to the Brexit referendum.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm not really surprised at all....

It seems this is the device that the appalling shower of self-centred lying greasers currently in government will use to blame the EU for "intransigence" or whatever the current sop to the stupid is. The appalling UK right wing press, which is to say pretty much all of it, will reinforce this load of old cobblers for all they're worth. Which intellectually isn't much at all....

You can fool some of the people....

[woolley]

20 minutes ago, P.K. said:

 

You can fool some of the people....

The EU certainly has.

[ballaughbiker]

Quote

They don't all come with bombs and guns. Our problem is that we don't recognise threats anymore. We are blase about our freedom because it's always been there.

You're starting to sound like the utterly ridiculous Mark François who seems to think, 80 years on, we are still at war

(I add une cédille 'cos it would piss him off.) 

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, P.K. said:

You can fool some of the people....

 

1 hour ago, woolley said:

The EU certainly has.

Keep sucking those lemons....!

The full quote is:

"You can fool all of the people some of the time.

"And some of the people all of the time.

"Couple that with illegal funding and dodgy farming personal data and it's enough to win a Brexit referendum..."

Well, I think that's what Abraham Lincoln said. I just put a modern twist on it...

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, ballaughbiker said:

You're starting to sound like the utterly ridiculous Mark François who seems to think, 80 years on, we are still at war

(I add une cédille 'cos it would piss him off.) 

Ah yes, Rees-Mogg's personal fag with his permanent ERG smirk.

On national tv he wished there was a "Churchill figure" who could step up to the mark and lead us through these dark days...

He's that delusional and still folks voted for him!

Little wonder brexit is a shambles...

[pongo]

9 hours ago, Max Power said:

In the EU publication I posted earlier in the thread, the stated aim is for all members to be in the Euro, including the UK, to facilitate just what you suggest. They declare that they know that there would be resistance but their aims are long term and will ride out that resistance.

In your analysis the currency is being used to drive political union for its own sake. But today it's more about whether the single currency can work unless there is a single treasury setting fiscal policy. That's the driving force. Politically that's clearly thorny.

National govts seem unwilling to stick to tight fiscal policy. They invariably want to bribe the electorate with unsustainable promises. It's similar to how UK govts used to use interest rates for political ends until the excellent 1997 govt moved monetary policy out of direct political control. Frankly fiscal policy should be removed from political control. Politicians should be able to determine where money is spent but not how much they can spend in total. Borrowing, taxation etc should be outside of direct political control.

So the question is whether it makes sense for places which are so relatively unbalanced to all be a part of the same currency (rather then perhaps just using it as a second currency). It barely makes sense Middlesbrough and London being part of the same currency.

Edited August 7, 2019 by pongo

[P.K.]

As I posted previously here is Michael Gove on the national broadcaster dripping and moaning about the EU "refusing to negotiate" or whatever.

It is very noticeable, to those with an open mind that is, how at no time does Gove mention how it's Boris Johnson's pre-condition that the backstop has to be sidelined before any talks can take place that is the cause of this impasse. Knowing that up front makes his words sound VERY hollow indeed.

But then lying brexiteers like Farage, Gove and Johnson are how we ended up in this mess in the first place....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49251257

[Max Power]

6 hours ago, pongo said:

So the question is whether it makes sense for places which are so relatively unbalanced to all be a part of the same currency (rather then perhaps just using it as a second currency). It barely makes sense Middlesbrough and London being part of the same currency.

That is what will happen though pongo, Helmut Kohl said that a single currency will not work without unified taxation, he was right and that is what the EU are planning. 

I think we are getting too hung up on the personalities involved and the nature of people who support either side. We need to see past this in order to progress. Personally, I like being a European of sorts, I love Europe and regret that Brexit will cause pain on both sides. I still believe though that Britain probably has more to lose than any other country in closer union with government from Brussels and Strasbourg. We have to make a stand to maintain our self sustainability.

I was in Belgium a couple of years after the Foot and Mouth outbreak and was discussing it with a chap who worked at the EU in Brussels. He made me think when he said that the EU agricultural plan for Britain was that it should not be a livestock producer, rather it would be devoted to crop production?    

[manxman1980]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

I was in Belgium a couple of years after the Foot and Mouth outbreak and was discussing it with a chap who worked at the EU in Brussels. He made me think when he said that the EU agricultural plan for Britain was that it should not be a livestock producer, rather it would be devoted to crop production?    

Can be safely dismissed as anecdotal evidence plus you have not included any indication of what this chaps role at the EU was.  For all we know he could be the cleaner...

[John Wright]

23 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

 For all we know he could be the cleaner...

Paging @Barrie

[Max Power]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

Can be safely dismissed as anecdotal evidence plus you have not included any indication of what this chaps role at the EU was.  For all we know he could be the cleaner...

He worked in the area of agriculture but you're right, it is anecdotal but I thought it was worth sharing as I don't think he made it up.