woolley Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, P.K. said: Have you ever heard of "open and transparent" government? Yes. It's a myth. So what if we suggested that all confidential correspondence between say, Tusk, Juncker and Barnier should be open to public scrutiny? That would be in order? And for the future, if every word uttered or written down in confidence by a politician, civil servant or advisor was under threat of future publication then nobody would ever commit to anything. Edited September 11, 2019 by woolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 1 hour ago, mojomonkey said: Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. They are still defying the will of Parliament. If only the Government had a majority! so yet again remoans like you want the gov. to disregard the law when it suits....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 1 hour ago, P.K. said: ex-Attorney General that nice Mr Grieve would know this. dominic grieve in 2017 “there is, as far as I can see, nothing in the treaties to indicate that you have to pay a penny on departure” (from the eu) in 2018 he told itv “there is a divorce bill to be paid even if we don't have a future relationship" lock him up......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 1 hour ago, woolley said: Yes. It's a myth. So what if we suggested that all confidential correspondence between say, Tusk, Juncker and Barnier should be open to public scrutiny? That would be in order? And for the future, if every word uttered or written down in confidence by a politician, civil servant or advisor was under threat of future publication then nobody would ever commit to anything. Excuse me Mr Blowhard but what passes between EU officials is not subject to UK legislation. Especially not Public Inquiries. Grieve is on the top of his game and you don't even get close... As to nobody ever comitting to anything, aka CYA time: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/legal-expert-david-allen-green-prorogation/ The Curse of Brexit strikes again....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 18 minutes ago, P.K. said: Excuse me Mr Blowhard but what passes between EU officials is not subject to UK legislation. Especially not Public Inquiries. Grieve is on the top of his game and you don't even get close... As to nobody ever comitting to anything, aka CYA time: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/legal-expert-david-allen-green-prorogation/ The Curse of Brexit strikes again....! I didn't state that what passes between EU officials was subject to UK legislation. As you know very well, I was drawing a parallel on the principle of operational confidentiality of communication between officials. Obviously you are floundering for a response by coming up with something so ridiculously lame. Are you really saying that every single message and instruction within government should be published? I very much look forward to this coming to pass in the Isle of Man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 6 hours ago, woody2 said: so yet again remoans like you want the gov. to disregard the law when it suits....... For the upteenth time, I am not a remainer. The vote was to leave, I respect that and the UK should leave. The behaviour and actions of all sides in Parliament regarding the exit is pathetic, that is my issue. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 7 hours ago, woolley said: I didn't state that what passes between EU officials was subject to UK legislation. As you know very well, I was drawing a parallel on the principle of operational confidentiality of communication between officials. Obviously you are floundering for a response by coming up with something so ridiculously lame. Are you really saying that every single message and instruction within government should be published? I very much look forward to this coming to pass in the Isle of Man! I'm floundering? Laughable! I'm saying that correspondence with no Security Classification can and is liable to be published in the public domain. They work for us you know. Although in the case of those Johnson has surrounded himself with you would have to wonder. You seem to think this is wrong and here is your reasoning: 9 hours ago, woolley said: And for the future, if every word uttered or written down in confidence by a politician, civil servant or advisor was under threat of future publication then nobody would ever commit to anything. which is complete and utter nonsense. They work for us you know. All this corres is grist to the mill of a Public Inquiry. And I'm pretty sure there will be one. Grieve is simply trying to give Joe Public the truth about what Johnson's completely shambolic administration is up to. Good for him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 9 hours ago, woolley said: If only the Opposition wanted an election! I wonder what they would do if Johnson tabled a confidence motion in his own government. corbyn said yesterday he wanted "a election now"........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, P.K. said: I'm floundering? Laughable! I'm saying that correspondence with no Security Classification can and is liable to be published in the public domain. They work for us you know. Although in the case of those Johnson has surrounded himself with you would have to wonder. You seem to think this is wrong and here is your reasoning: which is complete and utter nonsense. They work for us you know. All this corres is grist to the mill of a Public Inquiry. And I'm pretty sure there will be one. Grieve is simply trying to give Joe Public the truth about what Johnson's completely shambolic administration is up to. Good for him... "unreasonable and disproportionate" "contravene the law" "offend against basic principles of fairness" "To name individuals without any regard for their rights or the consequences of doing so goes far beyond any reasonable right of Parliament under this procedure". "These individuals have no right of reply, and the procedure used fails to afford them any of the protections that would properly be in place. "It offends against basic principles of fairness and the Civil Service duty of care towards its employees," https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49671566 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 1 hour ago, mojomonkey said: For the upteenth time, I am not a remainer. The vote was to leave, I respect that and the UK should leave. The behaviour and actions of all sides in Parliament regarding the exit is pathetic, that is my issue. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49661650 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 1 hour ago, mojomonkey said: For the upteenth time, I am not a remainer. The vote was to leave, I respect that and the UK should leave. The behaviour and actions of all sides in Parliament regarding the exit is pathetic, that is my issue. 7 minutes ago, woody2 said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49661650 What on earth is the relevance of that story to my comment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, woolley said: Are you really saying that every single message and instruction within government should be published? I very much look forward to this coming to pass in the Isle of Man! I think in the ordinary course of business it’s entirely reasonable to expect that government departments should not be releasing their findings and research as a matter of course but that they should be prepared for that work to be made public if there is a reasonable requirement to do so. Having said that; there is a strong argument for complete transparency so the control of information cannot be influenced on party political lines; giving the public an ability to make their own judgments on policy decisions. Parliament should always have the right to request the release of such documents if it believes or suspects that the Government of the day is suppressing information and research that would indicate that their policies may have negative consequences for the wider public. I’m not saying that a majority government shouldn’t have the right to press forward with policies of their own choosing but they should always be prepared that if those policies prove disastrous and they were warned that that may be the case they should be held accountable at the ballot box by an informed electorate. This doesn't just apply to brexit. Edited September 12, 2019 by The Lurker typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, The Lurker said: I think in the ordinary course of business it’s entirely reasonable to expect that government departments should not be releasing their findings and research as a matter of course but that they should be prepared for that work to be made public if there is a reasonable requirement to do so. Having said that; there is a strong argument for complete transparency so the control of information cannot be influenced on party political lines; giving the public an ability to make their own judgments on policy decisions. Parliament should always have the right to request the release of such documents if it believes or suspects that the Government of the day is suppressing information and research that would indicate that their policies may have negative consequences for the wider public. I’m not saying that a majority government shouldn’t have the right to press forward with policies of their own choosing but they should always be prepared that if those policies prove disastrous and they were warned that that may be the case they should be held accountable at the ballot box by an informed electorate. This doesn't just apply to brexit. they want private and personal communications released not just work related which is the problem....... geoffrey cox qc mp says its not legal.......they can always take him to court if they disagree........ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 2 hours ago, mojomonkey said: For the upteenth time, I am not a remainer. The vote was to leave, I respect that and the UK should leave. The behaviour and actions of all sides in Parliament regarding the exit is pathetic, that is my issue. 55 minutes ago, mojomonkey said: What on earth is the relevance of that story to my comment? glass houses......the eu is a worse mess....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 20 minutes ago, The Lurker said: Parliament should always have the right to request the release of such documents if it believes or suspects that the Government of the day is suppressing information and research that would indicate that their policies may have negative consequences for the wider public. I’m not saying that a majority government shouldn’t have the right to press forward with policies of their own choosing but they should always be prepared that if those policies prove disastrous and they were warned that that may be the case they should be held accountable at the ballot box by an informed electorate. Yesterday the appalling Leadsom was trying to suppress the Operation Yellowhammer papers. One of her "reasons" was because it was out of date. Just another brexiteer lie. It's an evergreen document that's updated monthly... This is exactly why Grieve has it absolutely right. From the very top down this administration is never to be trusted about anything and everything. Plus it's the duty of Her Maj's Opposition to scrutinise The Administration and what it's up to. So no more brexiteer bleating about the opposition carrying out it's raison d'etre if you don't mind. Thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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