Taxpayers to dig for £20M for Liverpool Dock

[Omobono]

19 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

The Liverpool flight is 45 minutes. The bus from JLA to Lime St is £4.50 and takes a whole 25min (I've just done it). That's not expensive. So a total of 70 minutes vs 3.5 hours.

One also has to travel to the Douglas Sea Terminal in order to catch the boat, and horror of horrors, check in early too (hang around). So another hour for most. Plus reclaiming your bags at the Liverpool end?

If and when the costs of the Liverpool Dock filter into SPCo fares there might well be charges for baggage too, it's already processed in an airport-like fashion so it would be an easy step. How much per bag (there'll be £100M +/- to recoup)?

The costs of this Dock may actually have the potential to damage IoM tourism. There's also the running costs which no-one seems to be willing to discuss yet.

But as long as some people think they can shop in Liverpool One a couple of weekends a year that's a price worth paying.

its time one of the back benchers brought a motion to Tynwald,to fully review the  viability of the  facility at LIverpool  , together with the  present and ongoing cost , and at the same time find out what happened to the negotiations taking place to utilise the 12 quays facility at Birkenhead , where I understand Tesco Marks and Spencer  and all the major  freight carriers we happy with , as it had excellent access to the M6 motorway and all the logistical  centres around Chester.

Foot passengers could be bused to the Pier head or Lime street ,

,LIverpool are going down the environmental route with vehicle taxes for entering the city and a ban on most goods vehicles in the  City centre , all this will add to the rising cost of doing business there ,plus the loan charges on a £80million  plus terminal and berth  that we don't own and can't use for freight ,!

Time for a complete rethink before we are saddled with massive costs that will have to be passed on to Business and the travelling  public  the Steam packet is the Islands lifeline , lets NOT put a Noose around its neck to strangle us with 

[Gladys]

34 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

The Liverpool flight is 45 minutes. The bus from JLA to Lime St is £4.50 and takes a whole 25min (I've just done it). That's not expensive. So a total of 70 minutes vs 3.5 hours.

One also has to travel to the Douglas Sea Terminal in order to catch the boat, and horror of horrors, check in early too (hang around). So another hour for most. Plus reclaiming your bags at the Liverpool end?

If and when the costs of the Liverpool Dock filter into SPCo fares there might well be charges for baggage too, it's already processed in an airport-like fashion so it would be an easy step. How much per bag (there'll be £100M +/- to recoup)?

The costs of this Dock may actually have the potential to damage IoM tourism. There's also the running costs which no-one seems to be willing to discuss yet.

But as long as some people think they can shop in Liverpool One a couple of weekends a year that's a price worth paying.

To be fair, you have to add in the check in time for the flight. 

The facility would have been fine and justifiable  if the costs had not escalated like they have.  The escalation requires a revisit of the justification.

[John Wright]

38 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

The Liverpool flight is 45 minutes. The bus from JLA to Lime St is £4.50 and takes a whole 25min (I've just done it). That's not expensive. So a total of 70 minutes vs 3.5 hours.

One also has to travel to the Douglas Sea Terminal in order to catch the boat, and horror of horrors, check in early too (hang around). So another hour for most. Plus reclaiming your bags at the Liverpool end?

If and when the costs of the Liverpool Dock filter into SPCo fares there might well be charges for baggage too, it's already processed in an airport-like fashion so it would be an easy step. How much per bag (there'll be £100M +/- to recoup)?

The costs of this Dock may actually have the potential to damage IoM tourism. There's also the running costs which no-one seems to be willing to discuss yet.

But as long as some people think they can shop in Liverpool One a couple of weekends a year that's a price worth paying.

The vast majority of the population live nearer to the Douglas Sea Terminal than to the airport. And sea terminal to landing stage is city center to city centre.

Me, using a wheelchair, minimum airport check in is 2 hours, deplaning, which you've ignored, generally takes half an hour, then bus to city centre. A trip from home to Lime street is easily 4.5 hours by plane but less than 4 by boat and I take my car and wheel chair in it. Even if I go via Heysham and drive its less than/or equal to flying, and I have the convenience of a car

[Non-Believer]

10 minutes ago, John Wright said:

The vast majority of the population live nearer to the Douglas Sea Terminal than to the airport. And sea terminal to landing stage is city center to city centre.

Me, using a wheelchair, minimum airport check in is 2 hours, deplaning, which you've ignored, generally takes half an hour, then bus to city centre. A trip from home to Lime street is easily 4.5 hours by plane but less than 4 by boat and I take my car and wheel chair in it. Even if I go via Heysham and drive its less than/or equal to flying, and I have the convenience of a car

But with respect John, you have particular circumstances. The vast majority of travellers don't have, or experience, your difficulties. As such, my flight got in at 07.40am, by 08.35am I was at Lime St., including deplaning and baggage reclaim.

Regardless of where this thread is meandering, £100M (+ running costs) cannot be justified for the Liverpool Terminal just for the benefit of a few IoM locals shopping expeditions (won't anybody think of the IoM retailers?) and footy matches nor for IoM tourist visitors alone, be they drivers or foot passengers.

If we were able to put freight through it, it might be justified and might recoup some of the costs. We can't, courtesy of LCC. So there's a good chance that one way or another those costs will end up on the fares?

[John Wright]

27 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

But with respect John, you have particular circumstances. The vast majority of travellers don't have, or experience, your difficulties. As such, my flight got in at 07.40am, by 08.35am I was at Lime St., including deplaning and baggage reclaim.

Regardless of where this thread is meandering, £100M (+ running costs) cannot be justified for the Liverpool Terminal just for the benefit of a few IoM locals shopping expeditions (won't anybody think of the IoM retailers?) and footy matches nor for IoM tourist visitors alone, be they drivers or foot passengers.

If we were able to put freight through it, it might be justified and might recoup some of the costs. We can't, courtesy of LCC. So there's a good chance that one way or another those costs will end up on the fares?

With respect you were generalising and you ignored

Time from Home to Port/airport

Check In time

Deplane and wait for bags time

The fact the bus isn't every minute and you have to wait

For most passengers its 2+ hours minimum from home to Lime street if you fly, and often closer to 3.

That being said I've been critical of the new sea terminal at Liverpool since day 1.

Im happy with Heysham, but when the seacat is running then Douglas centre to Liverpool city centre its often faster. 

[quilp]

As it seems to be a big deal (pun intended) can't dissenting taxpayers challenge this fiasco through the courts? It's our money after all. No more spent pending a proper inquiry and breakdown showing where all costs have been incurred and by whom? 

[Andy Onchan]

16 minutes ago, quilp said:

As it seems to be a big deal (pun intended) can't dissenting taxpayers challenge this fiasco through the courts? It's our money after all. No more spent pending a proper inquiry and breakdown showing where all costs have been incurred and by whom? 

What we need is an MHK to stand up for the taxpayer as they were mandated to. Any takers?

Chris Thomas?

Stu Peters?

Julie Edge?

Rob Callister? 

C'mon guys stand up and be counted. Start doing the work that we pay you for.

[Happier diner]

23 minutes ago, quilp said:

As it seems to be a big deal (pun intended) can't dissenting taxpayers challenge this fiasco through the courts? It's our money after all. No more spent pending a proper inquiry and breakdown showing where all costs have been incurred and by whom? 

If we successful in this wouldn't we be the ones who have to pay ourselves compensation.

[Non-Believer]

2 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

What we need is an MHK to stand up for the taxpayer as they were mandated to. Any takers?

Chris Thomas?

Stu Peters?

Julie Edge?

Rob Callister? 

C'mon guys stand up and be counted. Start doing the work that we pay you for.

And Lawrie Hooper, who stymied Baker's bid for the extra funding just before the last administration dissolved.

[Gladys]

25 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

If we successful in this wouldn't we be the ones who have to pay ourselves compensation.

Think the point would be to halt the project and have a review, and to apportion responsibility.  Compensation is not the only outcome of legal proceedings. 

[2112]

36 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

What we need is an MHK to stand up for the taxpayer as they were mandated to. Any takers?

Chris Thomas?

Stu Peters?

Julie Edge?

Rob Callister? 

C'mon guys stand up and be counted. Start doing the work that we pay you for.

You can forget CT who still hankers Government responsibility, Julie Edge won’t upset the apple cart and again she’s accepted into the Manx Establishment. Rob Callister is a political Pygmy and chameleon who will do things to suit his own ends. He will keep his nose clean as when there is a reshuffle he will be begging for a Ministerial role. He is hardly likely to question his own decisions as he was previously a member of the DOI so will be privy to the comings and goings. I would suggest Stu asks the questions, he has clean hands and it’s too Manx Establishment.

[Kopek]

The person asking the question would have to be someone the Keys would take seriously?

[code99]

4 minutes ago, Kopek said:

The person asking the question would have to be someone the Keys would take seriously?

How about John Wannenburgh?

[Happier diner]

42 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Think the point would be to halt the project and have a review, and to apportion responsibility.  Compensation is not the only outcome of legal proceedings. 

I think that stopping the project would be a disaster. How much of these extra costs are because the project was stopped due to covid and the contractor will have claiming costs all the way through.

With these contracts the word stopping is like music to a contractors ears. More money. 

[Non-Believer]

1 hour ago, Gladys said:

Think the point would be to halt the project and have a review, and to apportion responsibility.  Compensation is not the only outcome of legal proceedings. 

It shouldn't be about compensation, it should be about the financial management of the project, where the money has gone already and where future money, and how much more, will go.

Unlike the power station whose shenanigans only came to light in the latter or even finished stages, the Dock is an evolving situation and very much in the public eye. It is and should be still very much an option to be asking questions.