Taxpayers to dig for £20M for Liverpool Dock

[Passing Time]

9 minutes ago, James Blonde said:

There needs to be an FOI request for all correspondence between Gawne/Harmer/Baker, Nick Black, and Reynolds - and the Steam Packet. 

Submit one then

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3 hours ago, Zarley said:

But this isn't the only massive fuck up in their portfolio, is it. The senior heads are ultimately responsible for all of them and yes, they should roll.

Roll right out the door, do not collect massive goodbye payments and huge pensions on the way out, just GO. If our politicians had any guts, these heads would have rolled a long time ago and we might not be in this mess now.

I don't disagree that heads should but Wannerburgh's sole contribution was simply to demand all senior heads should role without really any review or investigation. I prefer that they follow the evidence and then take appropriate action whereas Wannerburgh's approach simply be to sack a load of people so it makes us look good without checking if they are sacking the right people or whether any changes in structure are required etc as simply replacing with different individuals might not stop the same thing happening again if there are no controls in the system. The only thing worse than continually hearing that lessons will be learned from fuck ups is not bothering to try and learn anything. That is how Wannerburgh came across to me. i.e. as long as we sack a load so we look as if we have taken action then that is all that matters.  

[hissingsid]

Wannerburgh is a grandstander we have seen in three times now, no real solution to anything use wants to be noticed.   Moorehouse is a prize chump he wanted to wait and see….when it is costing about forty grand a week doing not a lot, still we knew that from the gull saga.   What is a cs if it refers to a civi servant….way off I was in business most of my working life although I would not mind a civil service pension and the thought of being protected from any bad judgements and not being held liable for any cock ups would have been a great incentive to join the civil service in hindsight.   There was no option but to carry on with the project and I think the realists of this world accept this.   This does not mean the situation is right and I hope no more money gets asked for.    I think the people in charge were acting beyond their capabilities and the costing was way out simple as that.

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1 hour ago, Omobono said:

I admire John Wannenburgh approach , he is new yet  but he is obviously frustrated  at the  total miss management of this scheme , where we will eventually find those responsible for this mess have been allowed to sail off into the sunset   with their pockets bulging ,

If you listen to the debate I think they were all pissed off with the scheme. The only real difference was there was some who wanted the scheme pulled in which you are effectively left with only sailing to Heysham, which I believe is also ultimately owned by Peel Holdings, and those who through very gritted teeth and a considerable amount of unhappiness wanted the scheme to be completed. I think a couple were living in la la land in that they thought they could walk away and find an alternative site for a lot less money or renegotiate a better price.

I found Wannerburgh's contribution to the debate to be the least impressive as it seemed basically simply to sack everybody at a senior level at a senior level in the DOI. That may be what will have to be done but first you investigate and then take action rather than taken action and then investigate which appeared to be what Wannenburgh proposed

 

[Stu Peters]

Nonsense. John Wannenburgh suggested that those responsible for this mess be held to account, and I think we all agree on that. Trouble is, it will be incredibly difficult to prove anything - arses will have been exceptionally well covered to the point that the Nuremberg defence will probably suffice, or the people most responsible will have already departed before the fan is even switched on.

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20 minutes ago, Stu Peters said:

Nonsense. John Wannenburgh suggested that those responsible for this mess be held to account, and I think we all agree on that. Trouble is, it will be incredibly difficult to prove anything - arses will have been exceptionally well covered to the point that the Nuremberg defence will probably suffice, or the people most responsible will have already departed before the fan is even switched on.

I listened back to Wannenburgh's contribution and that is not how it comes across to me. Most others came across as wanting the matter investigated and those responsible held to account. Wannenburgh came across to me as just basically wanting somebody to be tarred and feathered.

Most other contributions were far more thoughtful and erudite including yours which seemed to reflect the opinion of those who were in agreement that the scheme should continue which is that it is an effing mess, people must be held responsible but the continuing is the lesser of two evils.

In respect of arses being covered you will probably be right but I expect much of this will fall at the hands of the consultants and the question will be why was that party appointed. From what I have heard the party that was probably the wrong choice, hopefully that is a neutral way of putting it, so why they were appointed is probably the numb of the issue. From there is was a domino affect.

   

[Non-Believer]

"We are where we are". Stated Eddie Lowey when the scale of the MEA debacle became apparent.

Parallels to be drawn? And look what that left us with.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Non-Believer
Typo

[the stinking enigma]

We could really do with getting this thing built, then buy a new fastcraft then privatise the steampacket again for about  20 years  until something else needs buying. Job done.

[the stinking enigma]

Why did we wait until it goylt to 40 million before having the discussion on whether it should progress further? Why didn't we just cut our losses at 3 million?

[cissolt]

Lots of members criticised the private briefing that was given at short notice.  Seems to be a familiar tactic when government want something approving without much oversight

[Andy Onchan]

10 minutes ago, the stinking enigma said:

Why didn't we just cut our losses at 3 million?

That's very good point. On the face of it the 3.5 million for the lease was cheap. Too cheap. The old saying of "if it sounds iffy or too good to be true, then it probably is. 

As I said earlier, Peel Ports wouldn't have put up with this situation if they were doing it themselves. Instead they handed it over to muggins (IOMG GMT) to take the hit.

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Andy Onchan

[2112]

1 hour ago, Stu Peters said:

Nonsense. John Wannenburgh suggested that those responsible for this mess be held to account, and I think we all agree on that. Trouble is, it will be incredibly difficult to prove anything - arses will have been exceptionally well covered to the point that the Nuremberg defence will probably suffice, or the people most responsible will have already departed before the fan is even switched on.

I would like to know Alf Cannans take on this wholly unsavoury episode. He must have a view after all he was the Treasury Minister. Or has his mind gone blank? I wouldn’t expect much evidence from ex CM Quayle. Alf was in charge of the finances so it’s a fair expectation for him to answer questions with candour and honesty as opposed to bullshit. 

[Stu Peters]

I'll readily admit I don't know enough about major schemes like this to add much, but it does seem that most of them globally go significantly over budget. I'd have thought a fixed price contract would have been preferable, but I'm guessing nobody would tender on that basis? 

[Passing Time]

4 minutes ago, Stu Peters said:

I'll readily admit I don't know enough about major schemes like this to add much, but it does seem that most of them globally go significantly over budget. I'd have thought a fixed price contract would have been preferable, but I'm guessing nobody would tender on that basis? 

You don't have to be that knowledgeable to know the IOM has been sold a pup

[asitis]

2 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

"We are where we are". Stated Eddie Lowey when the scale of the MEA debacle became apparent.

Parallels to be drawn? And look what that left us with.

Yes, we are all paying to use the loo because of that, what are they going to tax to pay for this cluster ? !