Taxpayers to dig for £20M for Liverpool Dock

[Johnny F]

This is Ann Reynolds and Nick Blacks shit show, but they've conveniently gone now. 

[Johnny F]

Stu Peters, Is there anyone from the Isle of Man Government actually over there watching whats happening? I mean actually making sure people are on site working and checking quantities of materials ordered are arriving onsite. Someone should be making sure we aren't being continuously ripped off.

[Non-Believer]

3 minutes ago, Johnny F said:

Stu Peters, Is there anyone from the Isle of Man Government actually over there watching whats happening? I mean actually making sure people are on site working and checking quantities of materials ordered are arriving onsite. Someone should be making sure we aren't being continuously ripped off.

Yes, we had a guy over there, Anderson I think his name was.... 😂

[finlo]

Just now, Non-Believer said:

Yes, we had a guy over there, Anderson I think his name was.... 😂

Aye,the big Joe appreciation fund I think it was!

[Gladys]

Surely there is a project manager on site?

[Happier diner]

2 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Surely there is a project manager on site?

Who is Shirley. You are mixing up site manager with project manager. 

[Gladys]

6 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Who is Shirley. You are mixing up site manager with project manager. 

The site manager will be working for the contractor, would they not?  Would there not be someone from the client who regularly checks progress, even if not permanently on site? 

Shirley?

[Stu Peters]

3 hours ago, Johnny F said:

Stu Peters, Is there anyone from the Isle of Man Government actually over there watching whats happening? I mean actually making sure people are on site working and checking quantities of materials ordered are arriving onsite. Someone should be making sure we aren't being continuously ripped off.

Apparently yes, we have a proper UK firm doing this for us now. I presume their fees will be part of the overspend, but I don't know that for sure. If they bring the project in on time and to the new budget, I expect they'll be worth it.

I think it was Chris Robertshaw who said in summer that we'd sent 4th division negotiators to play a premier league team in the UK. I don't do football, but it seemed an apt analogy. I said in December Tynwald we (the public) would be happier if there WERE heads on spikes, but there were a few murmurs about intemperate and unparliamentary language. Zero given...

[Happier diner]

4 hours ago, Gladys said:

The site manager will be working for the contractor, would they not?  Would there not be someone from the client who regularly checks progress, even if not permanently on site? 

Shirley?

Thats true. The person representing the client on site is normally the NEC supervisor. There role is to sign off work as complete and satisfactory. 

[asitis]

4 hours ago, Stu Peters said:

but there were a few murmurs about intemperate and unparliamentary language. Zero given...

Somehow the blunt and honest truth always seems to be classed as intemperate and unparliamentary !!

[Gladys]

4 hours ago, Happier diner said:

Thats true. The person representing the client on site is normally the NEC supervisor. There role is to sign off work as complete and satisfactory. 

So, the answer to Johnny F is yes.  There won't necessarily be someone from DOI offices present on site all the time, but there are people on the ground who are "watching our back".  That is the point of the question, I suppose.

So, the next question is how is additional work outside of the contract spec authorised?  Does the contractor have free hand to do something which is not specified in the contract and which if done to standard is signed off by the supervisor and becomes a liability on DOI?

Or is it pre-agreed with the supervisor before the work is actually done?  Can the supervisor pre-agree such work, or do they have to have DOI approval?

[asitis]

20 minutes ago, Gladys said:

So, the answer to Johnny F is yes.  There won't necessarily be someone from DOI offices present on site all the time, but there are people on the ground who are "watching our back".  That is the point of the question, I suppose.

So, the next question is how is additional work outside of the contract spec authorised?  Does the contractor have free hand to do something which is not specified in the contract and which if done to standard is signed off by the supervisor and becomes a liability on DOI?

Or is it pre-agreed with the supervisor before the work is actually done?  Can the supervisor pre-agree such work, or do they have to have DOI approval?

The bottom line with all this is , somehow they have us over a barrel from now on !

[Happier diner]

33 minutes ago, Gladys said:

So, the answer to Johnny F is yes.  There won't necessarily be someone from DOI offices present on site all the time, but there are people on the ground who are "watching our back".  That is the point of the question, I suppose.

So, the next question is how is additional work outside of the contract spec authorised?  Does the contractor have free hand to do something which is not specified in the contract and which if done to standard is signed off by the supervisor and becomes a liability on DOI?

Or is it pre-agreed with the supervisor before the work is actually done?  Can the supervisor pre-agree such work, or do they have to have DOI approval?

The supervisor would not normally authorise work that is outside of the scope. Only the project manager can do this. 

Sometimes extra work may become necessary and in that case the contractor may claim retrospectively. The project manager has to sign it off before it is paid. DOI approval would not be needed. 

DOI approval would only be needed if the scope changed. 

[Andy Onchan]

8 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

The supervisor would not normally authorise work that is outside of the scope. Only the project manager can do this. 

Sometimes extra work may become necessary and in that case the contractor may claim retrospectively. The project manager has to sign it off before it is paid. DOI approval would not be needed. 

DOI approval would only be needed if the scope changed. 

At what point do you differentiate between extra work and out of scope?

[Gladys]

2 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

The supervisor would not normally authorise work that is outside of the scope. Only the project manager can do this. 

Sometimes extra work may become necessary and in that case the contractor may claim retrospectively. The project manager has to sign it off before it is paid. DOI approval would not be needed. 

DOI approval would only be needed if the scope changed. 

So, who is the project manager? 

The project manager has to sign off extra work and there is no need for DOI approval.  I get that unexpected changes will occur and involve extra cost in big construction/civil engineering projects.  But there has to be a point that the change is so significant that it is "outside of the scope" of the contract can only be authorised by the client, i.e. DOI.

So, the question is at what point did DOI have to pre-agree a change in spec and, if the budget wasn't there, wouldn't they have had to go back to Tynwald for approval?  When was that first point, when it hit £20mn, £30mn or £40mn?  Was that the time to rethink the whole project, let alone when it looked like hitting £70mn and you have the unwelcome prospect of sunk cost?