Taxpayers to dig for £20M for Liverpool Dock

[Non-Believer]

51 minutes ago, Mercenary said:

Liverpool - can't be beholden to Peel Group who control all our ports > must be gateway building in dockside of Liverpool > prime conditions for big £ 

But one of the issues is that we are beholden to the Peel Group and will remain so even after the Liverpool Terminal is complete. We've only leased the land from PG, albeit 250 years or whatever it is, it then returns to them.

Plus we will still be reliant upon Heysham for our freight movement with that fine port's owners also being the Peel Group. So no "independence" from that concern has been gained for this ludicrous expenditure.

 

 

 

 

[Happier diner]

1 minute ago, Non-Believer said:

But one of the issues is that we are beholden to the Peel Group and will remain so even after the Liverpool Terminal is complete. We've only leased the land from PG, albeit 250 years or whatever it is, it then returns to them.

Plus we will still be reliant upon Heysham for our freight movement with that fine port's owners also being the Peel Group. So no "independence" from that concern has been gained for this ludicrous expenditure.

 

 

 

 

There could never have been a reduction in independence from heysham. Liverpool has been developed (rightly or wrongly) for a fastcraft to the city centre. 

I dont understand all this obsession with freight. It's a different thing. 

What would you have done different and where would you have built a new terminal......that is in walking distance of liverpool city centre?

[Two-lane]

3 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

We've only leased the land from PG, albeit 250 years or whatever it is,

Have you got an estimate of how much the gov. is going to spend on that site during those 250 or so years?

[asitis]

3 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

There could never have been a reduction in independence from heysham. Liverpool has been developed (rightly or wrongly) for a fastcraft to the city centre. 

I dont understand all this obsession with freight. It's a different thing. 

What would you have done different and where would you have built a new terminal......that is in walking distance of liverpool city centre?

If it's worth 100m to get in walking distance of the centre of liverpool I'll eat my hat !

[Happier diner]

25 minutes ago, asitis said:

If it's worth 100m to get in walking distance of the centre of liverpool I'll eat my hat !

I'm not saying it is. In that respect though we have been massively mislead by the Gawne era when the decision was made. It would seem that the decision was based on a totally underestimated and badly researched price. £3.5M. 

It might be argued that the figure was plucked from a hat without due investigation and surveys. 

If we had known it was going to be anything like £100m and counting, would we have made the same decision. Perhaps not..

My point though is that it has nothing to do with freight and never has been.

[Non-Believer]

49 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

There could never have been a reduction in independence from heysham. Liverpool has been developed (rightly or wrongly) for a fastcraft to the city centre. 

I dont understand all this obsession with freight. It's a different thing. 

What would you have done different and where would you have built a new terminal......that is in walking distance of liverpool city centre?

Were you to read my post properly the "independence" part I was referring to in reply to @Mercenary's post relates to Peel Group not Heysham specifically, we will remain largely tied to the Peel Group even after the Teminal is finished. It's not about freight.

The Steam Packet trialled berthing in other locations, John Wright has listed them previously on these boards. They should have been considered and long-term cost comparisons made over the Liverpool proposal. Even Lars Ugland of the Steam Packet has slammed the Liverpool/Mersey location, citing various problems.

Those other options were more than likely never considered over this obsession with "only walking" into "Liverpool city centre".

Rather, this obsession is going to land us with a £100M bill plus the as yet noticeably unquoted staffing, running and upkeep costs into the foreseeable future for a relative handful of sailings yearly.

Even half of £100M would go a long way into providing some doctors, nurses, dentists and infrastructure upkeep. There are greater needs on this Island than a runaway vanity project.

[Omobono]

what everyone is forgetting we walked away from a deal to use Stena facilities in Birkenhead  where meetings did take place regarding investing £2 million in their facility and making sure their link span was compatible with steam packet vessels ,  the hauliers and big retailers  Tesco and marks  and Spencer  who's distribution  centres are close to Chester  

it is a 50 odd miles trip to Heysham from there , and money and time could have been saved for freight users, and give 24 hour access  for shared services 

and foot passengers could have been bussed to Hamilton square , under the Mersey to  central bus station or Lime street for the railway connection , I hope when the whole issue comes before  the PAC , someone asks just how many foot passengers will use the new facility , most passengers wait in their cars , and who actually made the decision   to go with the £100  un flexible white elephant  in Liverpool 

[Happier diner]

53 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Were you to read my post properly the "independence" part I was referring to in reply to @Mercenary's post relates to Peel Group not Heysham specifically, we will remain largely tied to the Peel Group even after the Teminal is finished. It's not about freight.

The Steam Packet trialled berthing in other locations, John Wright has listed them previously on these boards. They should have been considered and long-term cost comparisons made over the Liverpool proposal. Even Lars Ugland of the Steam Packet has slammed the Liverpool/Mersey location, citing various problems.

Those other options were more than likely never considered over this obsession with "only walking" into "Liverpool city centre".

Rather, this obsession is going to land us with a £100M bill plus the as yet noticeably unquoted staffing, running and upkeep costs into the foreseeable future for a relative handful of sailings yearly.

Even half of £100M would go a long way into providing some doctors, nurses, dentists and infrastructure upkeep. There are greater needs on this Island than a runaway vanity project.

I keep saying I am not advocating Liverpool. I am saying it was a decision that was made based on incorrect information. 

Genuine question...again.

Which other locations are options?

[Happier diner]

49 minutes ago, Omobono said:

what everyone is forgetting we walked away from a deal to use Stena facilities in Birkenhead  where meetings did take place regarding investing £2 million in their facility and making sure their link span was compatible with steam packet vessels ,  the hauliers and big retailers  Tesco and marks  and Spencer  who's distribution  centres are close to Chester  

it is a 50 odd miles trip to Heysham from there , and money and time could have been saved for freight users, and give 24 hour access  for shared services 

and foot passengers could have been bussed to Hamilton square , under the Mersey to  central bus station or Lime street for the railway connection , I hope when the whole issue comes before  the PAC , someone asks just how many foot passengers will use the new facility , most passengers wait in their cars , and who actually made the decision   to go with the £100  un flexible white elephant  in Liverpool 

Didn't @John Wrightexplain some posts back, why Birkenhead/ sharing with stenawas not an option. Might be mistaken.

Personally I think Birkenhead would have been great and massively cheaper. Also ok for freight too.

I though it was ruled out for some reason. 

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, Omobono said:

what everyone is forgetting we walked away from a deal to use Stena facilities in Birkenhead  where meetings did take place regarding investing £2 million in their facility and making sure their link span was compatible with steam packet vessels ,  the hauliers and big retailers  Tesco and marks  and Spencer  who's distribution  centres are close to Chester  

Can you link to anything that shows there was a deal to be had investing £2million with Stena. My understanding is that there were discussions but never a possibility of anything coming from them.

1. Stena logistics and when they have their ferries alongside meant it would be very difficult to timetable a scheduled service daily in summer, very different to 90 minutes, two days per week, 4 months of the year.

2. Stena were already planing to replace their Belfast ferries with e-flexers and two level loading which meant the berths were not suitable for fast craft. 

it’s also worth remembering when talking about fast craft into Liverpool city centre, that this is a big assumption. No final decision has been made. Obviously Manxman could have been designed to be compatible with Stena design parameters. Does any one, seriously, stroll up to Lime Street or Merseyrail?

 

[Happier diner]

3 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Can you link to anything that shows there was a deal to be had investing £2million with Stena. My understanding is that there were discussions but never a possibility of anything coming from them.

1. Stena logistics and when they have their ferries alongside meant it would be very difficult to timetable a scheduled service daily in summer, very different to 90 minutes, two days per week, 4 months of the year.

2. Stena were already planing to replace their Belfast ferries with e-flexers and two level loading which meant the berths were not suitable for fast craft. 

it’s also worth remembering when talking about fast craft into Liverpool city centre, that this is a big assumption. No final decision has been made. Obviously Manxman could have been designed to be compatible with Stena design parameters. Does any one, seriously, stroll up to Lime Street or Merseyrail?

 

We do walk up to lime street. But I have to admit I could easily live without it. We also go shopping into liverpool in summer and enjoy a few drinks. But again we could Iive with out it. It's not that hard to get the train into liverpool from birkenhead and the hotels on the wirral are a dam sight cheaper. 

I dont think there is  long term decision on the mannanan and yes the manxman will surely do some service to liverpool. Possible winter weekend service. It's going to be 4.25 hrs though.

[TheTeapot]

14 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Does any one, seriously, stroll up to Lime Street or Merseyrail?

I have never not walked.

[Banker]

1 hour ago, TheTeapot said:

I have never not walked.

Same here 

[Cinderella]

Thomas still has a target to haveLiverpool terminal open this summer: government speak for ‘not a chance’. And of course it is all delayed due to bad weather. Too funny.

[cissolt]

Has a budget and/or project plan ever been published?  Or indeed created?  Infinite money projects are the preserve of the emirate states, not a tiny island in a recession.

 

New boat broken already? 

https://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/manxmans-delivery-date-delayed-by-significant-problems-in-vessels-systems-591827