Omobono Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Not nailing down the cost and a completion date are a big factor in this contract plus the fact that the construction industry is greatly overheated on Merseyside ,and we are probably playing second fiddle to other major contracts nearby , I hope when the public accounts committee gets sight of the contract they will make to terms known to the public , it looks very much like its too much in the contractors favour , too open ended regarding cost of the project , and probably written by someone unfamiliar with major marine related works packages and contracts , 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 54 minutes ago, Omobono said: Not nailing down the cost and a completion date are a big factor in this contract plus the fact that the construction industry is greatly overheated on Merseyside ,and we are probably playing second fiddle to other major contracts nearby , I hope when the public accounts committee gets sight of the contract they will make to terms known to the public , it looks very much like its too much in the contractors favour , too open ended regarding cost of the project , and probably written by someone unfamiliar with major marine related works packages and contracts , The project managers are AECOM and the main project manager is an expert on marine related work packages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 1 hour ago, cissolt said: Mr Thomas, is there an actual project plan with budgets and time estimates? I've never know a project to run with no budget and projections in the private sector. Surely any budget plan should be a public document? If course there will be. If you read back in this thread there is lots of information. I think @Roger Mexicodid a lot of research. Major projects ddo not have a fixed cost. They start with an agreed tendered value but that is dependant on certain things being correct. I think when they started the condition of the dock was not as expected. There were real voids in this one. Add in COVID and then the extra work for the thrusters that the new boat has and this is where you end up. The issue IMO isn't budgets. It's lack of planning and pre tender investigation. don't know why the text has turned red. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Happier diner said: If course there will be. If you read back in this thread there is lots of information. I think @Roger Mexicodid a lot of research. Major projects ddo not have a fixed cost. They start with an agreed tendered value but that is dependant on certain things being correct. I think when they started the condition of the dock was not as expected. There were real voids in this one. Add in COVID and then the extra work for the thrusters that the new boat has and this is where you end up. The issue IMO isn't budgets. It's lack of planning and pre tender investigation. don't know why the text has turned red. If the project was run correctly every time an unexpected issue was discovered the Project Team, SME's and stakeholders should have got together and run all the usual SWOT's, costings, timeframes etc etc and then made a decision on whether to proceed or not on the new basis. So presumably the decision was always to proceed. The reasoning should be in the minutes of the meetings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercenary Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) 33 minutes ago, P.K. said: If the project was run correctly every time an unexpected issue was discovered the Project Team, SME's and stakeholders should have got together and run all the usual SWOT's, costings, timeframes etc etc and then made a decision on whether to proceed or not on the new basis. So presumably the decision was always to proceed. The reasoning should be in the minutes of the meetings... Do you mean whether to stop the project or not at each compensation event? In reality there is generally a pot of contingency and the decision on termination is one for the client team (at any point really). Termination is not an easy choice though as you have to payoff the contractor and outlay £10s of millions for no benefit. In general change will happen on a construction project. You can't make discovery of a void 'unhappen' or not pay out for unforeseen events such as COVID where you are contractually bound. There is the question of adequate site investigation & requirements (e.g. with new ship coming in) pre-tender as Happier Diner alluded to, but once the contract is let the wheels are in motion and you can't just 'stop' with no consequences. Edit: or an alternative to the above is make up your own narrative as with the MEA works. Proffitt saying they couldn't be over budget as they didn't know what the final budget was (despite being mid construction). Maybe this approach is more suited to the political and public environment here. Edited February 5, 2023 by Mercenary Additional info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 35 minutes ago, Mercenary said: Do you mean whether to stop the project or not at each compensation event? In reality there is generally a pot of contingency and the decision on termination is one for the client team (at any point really). Termination is not an easy choice though as you have to payoff the contractor and outlay £10s of millions for no benefit. Quite. Of course, everyone has 20/20 hindsight... But the costs have risen so high from the original guesstimates you have to wonder if the team were fully advised of the risks from the start. But then I personally think the choice of Liverpool had a heavy historic leaning. Perhaps they should have cast their net a little wider...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 1 hour ago, P.K. said: If the project was run correctly every time an unexpected issue was discovered the Project Team, SME's and stakeholders should have got together and run all the usual SWOT's, costings, timeframes etc etc and then made a decision on whether to proceed or not on the new basis. So presumably the decision was always to proceed. The reasoning should be in the minutes of the meetings... The reasoning will be in the Project file and in the minutes. You can do the things you suggest. I would wager that they did. They dont stop the price going up though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asitis Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Our politicos were obviously briefed on the situation, which made them make the decision to continue. As this is such a spectacularly over budget project, it should be only fair those who are picking up the tab, i.e. the taxpayers, are at least fed some information about how and why their money is being siphoned in this way. Winter weather just doesn't cut it for me, its winter for gods sake and if you haven't noticed its winter every year about this time ! It certainly is not a budget overrun, it is difficult to decide what an all encompassing term for this shambles is ! 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 44 minutes ago, asitis said: Our politicos were obviously briefed on the situation, which made them make the decision to continue. There's an alternative. Our politicos were being briefed by the same people that Alf Cannan said couldn't be trusted to "accurately inform" them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercenary Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Non-Believer said: There's an alternative. Our politicos were being briefed by the same people that Alf Cannan said couldn't be trusted to "accurately inform" them. Overly simplistic, as with most comments on the Prom etc. As Happier Diner said once the contract is let there are no good options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 2 hours ago, asitis said: Our politicos were obviously briefed on the situation, which made them make the decision to continue. As this is such a spectacularly over budget project, it should be only fair those who are picking up the tab, i.e. the taxpayers, are at least fed some information about how and why their money is being siphoned in this way. Winter weather just doesn't cut it for me, its winter for gods sake and if you haven't noticed its winter every year about this time ! It certainly is not a budget overrun, it is difficult to decide what an all encompassing term for this shambles is ! It's nothing to do with budgets. Nothing at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 17 minutes ago, Mercenary said: Overly simplistic, as with most comments on the Prom etc. As Happier Diner said once the contract is let there are no good options. The Chief Minister made a public statement to the unmistakeable effect that public servants could not be trusted to relay accurate and truthful information to their relevant Departmental politicians. This was mid-both Promenade and Terminal projects. Shortly after that the CEO was "retired" from post. There's nothing simplistic about that. How long into both projects had this misinformation been taking place, from the very beginning perhaps, or just when things started to go "wrong", such as when the justifications proved to be hollow (unlike the Promenade "voids")? This present situation has more than likely arisen from this. Had our politicians been accurately informed about what the state of play was with both projects, then it's distinctly possible that different decisions might have been made in respect of the relevant expenditures. The taxpayers and their elected have been led merrily up the garden path, provenly by the dismissal of the senior public servant heading the Department. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 4 hours ago, P.K. said: If the project was run correctly every time an unexpected issue was discovered the Project Team, SME's and stakeholders should have got together and run all the usual SWOT's, costings, timeframes etc etc and then made a decision on whether to proceed or not on the new basis. So presumably the decision was always to proceed. The reasoning should be in the minutes of the meetings... Why would you do a SWOT analysis on a running contract? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Just now, Gladys said: Why would you do a SWOT analysis on a running contract? Save Wozillions On Termination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 41 minutes ago, Mercenary said: Overly simplistic, as with most comments on the Prom etc. As Happier Diner said once the contract is let there are no good options. But there are least bad options. HD shot me down a year or so ago when I suggested that consideration of pulling the plug should a real option. It wouldn’t be palatable. But it may, at that time, be a better option than running with a project which had no upper limit. I was told that was not how contracts work. Well, that is how they should work assuming they were negotiated correctly. No-one should bind themselves into a limitless contract, especially one funded by taxpayer funds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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