Taxpayers to dig for £20M for Liverpool Dock

[Two-lane]

This is Crookall in February 2022. He seems confident.

 

 

[Max Power]

11 hours ago, Gladys said:

I think anyone contemplating a boat journey to get to their destination really wants to get there anyway.   Heysham docks  are more easily accessed than Liverpool docks now. It may be a bit further up the motorway, but that is insignificant when people are used to travelling further than between Douglas and Peel.  I used to  travel between South London and Cardiff and back in a day every couple of months, no big shakes.  It is what you do. 

The idea that a Liverpool sea connection is vital is just not borne out with any kind of critical analysis. 

It certainly is nice to have, but not vital because we can still fly there, and vice versa.  Yet that kind of nostalgic need for a direct link underpinned the (flawed) decision to proceed with this clusterfuck at a huge cost and impact on who knows what actually vital services? 

If you want to go to see the footie, shop, go to a concert, have any other kind of break in Liverpool, fly.  Simples. 

I’m not interested in the football, shopping or going to concerts. 
I just believe that a link to a major city like Liverpool is very important to the island and its aspirations, a link centred on Heysham is indicative of where we see ourselves and is a self fulfilling prophecy in itself!

[CallMeCurious]

Will the new Manxman be able to use the Heysham berth? Or will that 'suddenly' need a £5m anti-scour upgrade too?

If the Manxman was due for delivery this year, presumably before TT, why is work on the pier only starting now?

 

 

[CallMeCurious]

7 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I’m not interested in the football, shopping or going to concerts. 
I just believe that a link to a major city like Liverpool is very important to the island and its aspirations, a link centred on Heysham is indicative of where we see ourselves and is a self fulfilling prophecy in itself!

What would it cost to buy coaches and run them from Heysham direct to the City Centre and one to a mainline station? Far less than £100m.

Don't forget that £100m is the constrution cost, what will be the ongoing costs? Assuming SPC will be paying a less than commercial rate for the facility?

[Max Power]

4 minutes ago, CallMeCurious said:

What would it cost to buy coaches and run them from Heysham direct to the City Centre and one to a mainline station? Far less than £100m.

Don't forget that £100m is the constrution cost, what will be the ongoing costs? Assuming SPC will be paying a less than commercial rate for the facility?

I am not for a minute suggesting that we should be sailing to Liverpool at all costs, the incompetence of our lot in negotiations is disgraceful. We do need to be going there but it should have been done at a fair and reasonable price. 
Once again we have had our pants pulled down and our bottom spanked because those in charge want to play with the big boys in the playground!

[CallMeCurious]

10 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I am not for a minute suggesting that we should be sailing to Liverpool at all costs, the incompetence of our lot in negotiations is disgraceful. We do need to be going there but it should have been done at a fair and reasonable price. 
Once again we have had our pants pulled down and our bottom spanked because those in charge want to play with the big boys in the playground!

Yet it seems that those in charge are 'at all costs' type of people. The fact that no-one even considered the impact of the new boat (to their design) would have on the dock (also their design) is astounding.

A bit like buying a car and building a house with a garage that won't take the weight of the car. 

[Happier diner]

43 minutes ago, CallMeCurious said:

Yet it seems that those in charge are 'at all costs' type of people. The fact that no-one even considered the impact of the new boat (to their design) would have on the dock (also their design) is astounding.

A bit like buying a car and building a house with a garage that won't take the weight of the car. 

To be fair though, if you think about it, it was conceived and designed before the new boat was ordered.

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, Two-lane said:

This is Crookall in February 2022. He seems confident.

 

 

Was anyone else though?

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, P.K. said:

They looked at other options and decided that Half Tide dock was pretty much the only viable one. Which probably meant to the team that they had to make it work. IMHO of course.

However I do wonder how hard they looked for an alternative to Liverpool and whether or not they were properly  forewarned as to what issues they might come across eg like previously undiscovered ordnance...?

If you consider the criteria for which it was decided that Liverpool fits. Is there an alternative to Liverpool?

I mean its not easy to hide a big coastal city, with a rich cultural heritage that is in reach of Douglas......well apart from Dublin or Belfast. I guess they were discounted because they lack the onward travel options.

[Declan]

28 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

If you consider the criteria for which it was decided that Liverpool fits. Is there an alternative to Liverpool?

I mean its not easy to hide a big coastal city, with a rich cultural heritage that is in reach of Douglas......well apart from Dublin or Belfast. I guess they were discounted because they lack the onward travel options.

 

You can get a coach from Belfast City Centre to Glasgow Bus Station.

Blackpool? Although that's stretching the definition of "rich cultural heritage". 

After that  it's Birkenhead and a bus to Liverpool or Chester. Or Heysham and the daily train to Lancaster. Or make do with flying if you don't want to or can't take a car. Liverpool is much the best solution  for foot passengers in most circumstances not sure if that justifies the cost, though. 

 

[asitis]

2 hours ago, P.K. said:

However I do wonder how hard they looked for an alternative to Liverpool

About as hard as they looked for an alternative provider to the SPCO ! If this whole issue is not forensically examined by a competent PCA then the IOM will continue to be others goldmine !

[Roger Mexico]

12 hours ago, Gladys said:

So what?  I mean really, if £70m + is to be spent so people can have a day trip to Liverpool, then we are really fucked. 

And yet when someone tackled Cannan about this at that Government Conference, he could do little to justify it, or even explain the ever-expanding cost, except babble about consultations having shown that people wanted to go to Liverpool.  He refused even to admit that it was a mistake in retrospect.  The decision had been made and therefore to even question it was unthinkable and against the whole way government was supposed to operate.

For these people, politicians and civil servants alike, government is seen as being entirely procedural, indeed almost ritualistic.  Once something has been started it has to be finished no matter how mistaken it turns out to be or how much circumstances change.  Of course it gives everyone involved an easy life and absolves everyone from responsibility if the correct rituals have been followed.  Consequences will always be for other people.

[asitis]

2 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Consequences will always be for other people.

Consequences will always be for the taxpayers ! 

[Max Power]

3 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

And yet when someone tackled Cannan about this at that Government Conference, he could do little to justify it, or even explain the ever-expanding cost, except babble about consultations having shown that people wanted to go to Liverpool.  He refused even to admit that it was a mistake in retrospect.  The decision had been made and therefore to even question it was unthinkable and against the whole way government was supposed to operate.

For these people, politicians and civil servants alike, government is seen as being entirely procedural, indeed almost ritualistic.  Once something has been started it has to be finished no matter how mistaken it turns out to be or how much circumstances change.  Of course it gives everyone involved an easy life and absolves everyone from responsibility if the correct rituals have been followed.  Consequences will always be for other people.

I agree, but they made the right decision, it just all went wrong after that!

[Max Power]

8 minutes ago, asitis said:

About as hard as they looked for an alternative provider to the SPCO ! If this whole issue is not forensically examined by a competent PCA then the IOM will continue to be others goldmine !

I think there were plenty of reasons to discount other providers, actually a case of lessons were learnt for once!