Happier diner Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 1 minute ago, Dirty Buggane said: Would this not be the third lot of financing for the trams to go to sea terminal if goes ahead. Would we have to lay tracks that can take 7 tons of electric/diesel/steam tram. Or can we go with the cheaper horse tram rails, and fuck off Longworths dream of steam on the prom. The prom has similarities. Poor concept, then changes part way through. Broke all the golden rules of good construction projects management. It's worth noting though that tje politicians insisted on the changes, not the DOI. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 1 hour ago, Ringy Rose said: It’s the same story as the Prom. The DOI jettisoned their construction specialists to reduce headcount. The DOI then hired in clueless consultants who come up with a stratospherically shit design. The DOI plough on with the shit design, despite everyone saying it’s a shit design, because obviously the clueless consultants know best. The DOI then spends a fortune on remediation work for the shit design. The clueless consultants blame the DOI for “changing the brief”, even though the brief hasn’t changed, it’s just the initial design was shit. Like I said, the DOI didn't change the brief, the politicians did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 5 minutes ago, Happier diner said: It'll more than hurt. It's a stupid idea I'm afraid. If you had said that 2 years ago I would have agreed. Paying £100m and ending up with nothing, that would be crazy. Who else would want a RORO ferry berth in Liverpool. It would be worthless . Well let's see where we are in the next two years then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 7 hours ago, Happier diner said: No lawyers are involved. No one has sued anyone yet. The most obvious legal action would be IOMG vs the designer. That may well happen yet. This would be an allegation of negligence. If the situation is that there are contractual problems and no lawyers were involved, then that may explain a lot. But more likely the in-house ones were so totally inexperienced at the task that they didn't even realise they weren't up to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarley Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 18 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said: If the situation is that there are contractual problems and no lawyers were involved, then that may explain a lot. But more likely the in-house ones were so totally inexperienced at the task that they didn't even realise they weren't up to it. Were the in-house lawyers recruited from the firm Dunning & Kruger? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 25 minutes ago, Happier diner said: Like I said, the DOI didn't change the brief, the politicians did. Definitely. We all know politicians interfere and demand things that nobody can meet without spending megabucks. But not everything lies with the politicians. With the Prom it wasn’t the politicians who wanted to make the horse tram tracks capable of holding the weight of proper trains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 7 minutes ago, Happier diner said: Like I said, the DOI didn't change the brief, the politicians did. Politicians had very little to do with either project, except possibly at the start of the Liverpool one - but even then we don't where the balance of pressure was. The Prom was clearly an unnecessary scheme from the start, designed to make DoI civil servants more important and changes to scheme came from those like Longworth. The main failing of politicians was not intervening - but we have seen motions of Tynwald ignored by the DoI on both projects and when Ministers try to take any sort of control, they get sacked by our obliging Chief Ministers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 28 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said: Politicians had very little to do with either project, except possibly at the start of the Liverpool one - but even then we don't where the balance of pressure was. The Prom was clearly an unnecessary scheme from the start, designed to make DoI civil servants more important and changes to scheme came from those like Longworth. The main failing of politicians was not intervening - but we have seen motions of Tynwald ignored by the DoI on both projects and when Ministers try to take any sort of control, they get sacked by our obliging Chief Ministers. A lot of these issues stem from the fact that the politicos are essentially amateurs on just about everything they stick their noses in to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 1 minute ago, P.K. said: A lot of these issues stem from the fact that the politicos are essentially amateurs on just about everything they stick their noses in to. Well quite. But at least we (and they) know they are amateurs. The real problem is the 'professionals' who think they understand everything perfectly and a political culture where politicians are expected to meekly follow the 'professional' view without question, no matter how implausible the advice they are given is. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two-lane Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 38 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said: But at least we (and they) know they are amateurs I do not agree with that. I believe that some of them think that from the moment they are elected, they have somehow become endowed with magical, mystical, skills and abilities. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarley Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 13 minutes ago, Two-lane said: I do not agree with that. I believe that some of them think that from the moment they are elected, they have somehow become endowed with magical, mystical, skills and abilities. True, Ashford being one of them. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted July 22, 2023 Author Share Posted July 22, 2023 11 minutes ago, Two-lane said: I do not agree with that. I believe that some of them think that from the moment they are elected, they have somehow become endowed with magical, mystical, skills and abilities. They're led to believe that they possess those attributes by the Sir Humphreys. That and a jolly or two to confirm the importance. Bingo. Tame politicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 8 minutes ago, Two-lane said: I do not agree with that. I believe that some of them think that from the moment they are elected, they have somehow become endowed with magical, mystical, skills and abilities. In the U.K. electoral process they'd be nominated, vetted, sponsored and selected by their Party before they faced the electorate. With our MHKs that process just isn't there and fitness for office is mostly all in the candidate's head. Most are deluded in their abilities even before they put their name forward. They've got little idea about real world politics and how Tynwald and decision making really works. That's natural human naivety and inexperience, and most of us have ticked that box, but until we figure out how to get better candidates we'll never move forward. It might sound counter-intuitive but I'd start by getting rid of local authorities. They just clog up the works and frustrate enterprise and decision making with localism and petty issues. Better to elect committees to scrutinise and support central government, bringing more people into the real decision making process. It would also give people experience and a real taste of serious politics before they throw their hat in the ring. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 23 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said: In the U.K. electoral process they'd be nominated, vetted, sponsored and selected by their Party before they faced the electorate. With our MHKs that process just isn't there and fitness for office is mostly all in the candidate's head. Most are deluded in their abilities even before they put their name forward. They've got little idea about real world politics and how Tynwald and decision making really works. That's natural human naivety and inexperience, and most of us have ticked that box, but until we figure out how to get better candidates we'll never move forward. It might sound counter-intuitive but I'd start by getting rid of local authorities. They just clog up the works and frustrate enterprise and decision making with localism and petty issues. Better to elect committees to scrutinise and support central government, bringing more people into the real decision making process. It would also give people experience and a real taste of serious politics before they throw their hat in the ring. We are both over-governed and under-led if you get my point. Spot on on local authorities and on the lack of party politics impacting on the quality of candidates. Back benchers do not, and cannot, offer a credible opposition to Comin, which is basically a self-perpetuating inner camp. That is not to criticise anyone on a personal level, the system is not conducive to creating any 'glue' within the disparate group that makes up the back benches. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blade Runner Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 2 hours ago, Shake me up Judy said: In the U.K. electoral process they'd be nominated, vetted, sponsored and selected by their Party before they faced the electorate. With our MHKs that process just isn't there and fitness for office is mostly all in the candidate's head. Most are deluded in their abilities even before they put their name forward. They've got little idea about real world politics and how Tynwald and decision making really works. That's natural human naivety and inexperience, and most of us have ticked that box, but until we figure out how to get better candidates we'll never move forward. It might sound counter-intuitive but I'd start by getting rid of local authorities. They just clog up the works and frustrate enterprise and decision making with localism and petty issues. Better to elect committees to scrutinise and support central government, bringing more people into the real decision making process. It would also give people experience and a real taste of serious politics before they throw their hat in the ring. If you split this into about 4 separate paragraphs this would be the best ever post, ever, posted on here...........ever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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